M62/M95 Plastic Colored Magazines

#1
I could not find a section for magazines, so figured this area would be appropriate to discuss these magazines.

Who here has their hands on, or have pics of any of the "Color plastic magazines" that the Mil were testing out in the 1980's? (The ones that are cool looking, well, some are, some specimens not as much as others)

Looking forward to this discussion, and if anything business wise, feel free to contact me either by Private Message or comment here.

Thank you and looking forward to discussing these old test mags and the theories or any solid info on them.
 
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#2
Any other pics, info, of any for sale?

Would pay $120 up to $150 per magazine that are like these or similar. Just no Green or Black.

I see this forum is extremely active so please excuse me posting in multiple sub forums.

 

Sardaukar

Ylipäällikkö
Lahjoittaja
#3
I don't think I have ever seen any specimens like that for Finnish RK 62 or RK 95, so those are definitely collector's items and people might not part with them easily.

Some weapon-enthusiasts on forum may be able to add more info.
 
#4
[QUOTE = "Sardaukar, post: 462 405, member: 944"] I do not think I have ever seen any specimens like that for Finnish RK 62 or RK-95, ie Those are definitely collector's items and people might not part with them easily .

Some weapon-enthusiasts is a forum May be able to add more info. [/ QUOTE]

Yea, some keep them for cool factor (especially collectors) and alot of other folks may have 1 or 2 they got 10-20 years ago and wouldn't mind letting go for a good price being they likely bought one for 10 Euros being it was unique. Just a matter of who is on forums and who is not. Atleast in my experience.

Any other good Finnish forums that are a little more active that you know of?
 

ctg

Ylipäällikkö
#5
Any other good Finnish forums that are a little more active that you know of?
You're reading the situation wrongly mate. Finns are notorious for keeping silent. There are people here who knows what you're talking about, but they're hesitant to say anything. Given time, they might answer but for first time poster and still a newbie to this site, especially talking in English and not native Finnish, the posters shy away from answering.

Why the special interest on these magazines? Some of them look 3D printed and not stock issue. Olive green and black plastic mags or black and worn out metal mags are normal issue items. You might even serve and never ever see the metal mags, but they are real, just very rare. Therefore the white mag you have in the picture is next to an unicorn.

I'll hope this helps.
 
#6
You're reading the situation wrongly mate. Finns are notorious for keeping silent. There are people here who knows what you're talking about, but they're hesitant to say anything. Given time, they might answer but for first time poster and still a newbie to this site, especially talking in English and not native Finnish, the posters shy away from answering.

Why the special interest on these magazines? Some of them look 3D printed and not stock issue. Olive green and black plastic mags or black and worn out metal mags are normal issue items. You might even serve and never ever see the metal mags, but they are real, just very rare. Therefore the white mag you have in the picture is next to an unicorn.

I'll hope this helps.
Thank you for clarifying, I am just used to alot of US forums where their is a new topic every few minutes, Finland being a smaller country, less gun owners, and the good point that you made aswell about native mannerisms and me speaking English so you make a good point

I originally posted something that I translated into Finnish using google but I was told on another forum that I would be best to delete and use clear English opposed to a bad translation. I was told English does not translate to Finnish very well, or maybe he meant if using google to do it.

I got mine as "rare mags" and most in Finland, a few in the US that came in with greens over a decade ago. I figured they were "uncommon" in Finland but assumed were heavily owned by the collectors and enthusiasts on forums, although I know they are not on store shelves of anything these days. Seems the people who got them, got them quick and do not show them off to where not much is known by general collectors. Only pics in US are ones I now own from buying from previous owners.

Everyone I have gotten mags (or info) from in the year I've been searching was either close to the factory (or depot) connections or bought in early 90's and up until about 2010, at gunshows and FDF surplus stores also but they starting getting scarce when the Black ones did also due to FDF not surplussing many of their mags if found anymore, although a buddy of mine did spot some Gray ones with RK95 body style and tower mold in 2013 and a good amount of them but store is now closed and was told by FDF surplus stores manager that random things come and go. Also they were in gunshops, normally mixed in with Green mags and were around 10 Euros.

Apparently alot also circulated into Europe due to Finnish gunshow merchants traveling to surrounding countries. Have been told are likely a good amount in Finland, most are owned by collectors or average enthusiasts who just bought them for the "Cool Factor" being 10 euros and alot of owners likely do not get on forums.

The greens were the strongest material and were sent into a 2nd phase of production leading to larger numbers of green mags, then they still had weakness issues so the Black RK95 mag proved to be the best once created, and all of the weak mags were surplussed. I hear some green mags function well, and some bulge at feedlips, guess it depends on the batch.

These pictured are indeed real Trial mags made by FDF, yet alot were destroyed once proven weak and when SAKO bought Valmet (or however that went about happening), alot were found in crates and those are what hit the market and circulated, just not in huge numbers.

Also, I have recently learned that their is a board containing "86 Colors/variations" that have been gathered and are in a museum, possibly in the city of Helsinki. Would love to see pics of this "board" if true, have been told this by 2 people in Finland that know their stuff.

From what I own and have seen, Each color had atleast 5 or more shades though and some colors mixed, would likely look like a color spectrum if you had all 86. So its likely just 7-10 primary colors and the rest being different shades and hues, different plastic variations (being they are some solid or some semi-translucent), just guessing but by what I own and have seen, I feel its a very appropriate assumption.

I know when the green mags were imported to some bulk distributors here in the US, most were Pea green and OD Green (Olive Drab green)... Although they varied from light to dark also...Some looked nearly White in shade being extremely light green, and one I have looks black it is so dark, but is just very dark green. Some had a plum/red shade, some were brown, so the greens varied in color consistency heavily also.

I thought it was inconsistencies in the production process and them adding dye the wrong way but 1 theory is that they mixed colors and added less, or more color dye to see what would be the strongest bonding agent.

Overall, just cool looking mags but wanting to expand my collection to write up an article to make them more known about being I have alot of info on them I've gathered over the past year, searching everyday.
 

ctg

Ylipäällikkö
#7
Thank you for clarifying, I am just used to alot of US forums where their is a new topic every few minutes, Finland being a smaller country, less gun owners, and the good point that you made aswell about native mannerisms and me speaking English so you make a good point
Another thing that you should take in account in the Information Warfare and Espionage aspect that dwells around these subject. We know that these forums are read by our eastern neighbours and there are thing people here only talk in native Finnish to make it harder for them to understand as it's one of the hardest language in world. A single word can have multiple meaning depending on the condition. Hence Google's translation doesn't always work. They might even read really awkward, if not somewhat funny.

I got mine as "rare mags" and most in Finland, a few in the US that came in with greens over a decade ago. I figured they were "uncommon" in Finland but assumed were heavily owned by the collectors and enthusiasts on forums, although I know they are not on store shelves of anything these days. Seems the people who got them, got them quick and do not show them off to where not much is known by general collectors. Only pics in US are ones I now own from buying from previous owners.
The problem with thing is the US admiration and during last previous decades some people were foolish and ordered perfectly usable material to be destroyed (read cannons, tanks, gun recycled back to raw materials) but a lot of other stuff has been sent to museums. In fact, Finland is one of those countries where you can find a lot of still usable items in display racks, restored to almost pristine conditions. And I think this place might be able to help you, if people here keeps shy on the matters

http://maanpuolustuskorkeakoulu.fi/en/military-museum

It is the largest military museum in Finland, boasting a collection of hundreds of thousands items and artefacts, including decorations, arms, equipment and art.

In addition, the Military Museum has a large collection of photographs and images.

Founded in 1929, the museum is part of the National Defence University, and welcomes tens of thousands of visitors each year.
Have been told are likely a good amount in Finland, most are owned by collectors or average enthusiasts who just bought them for the "Cool Factor" being 10 euros and alot of owners likely do not get on forums.
Correct. It is another our "sins." We collect loads of stuff and really not talk about our treasures, because of the old mentality of not throwing away anything that might be useful down the years. But about attending forums I wouldn't be so sure as "chatting" is also one of those "sins." We like to debate about things, especially after couple of cool ones. And give a Finn a mobile and you cannot really stop them from talking. But take it away and we are immediately back to the "culture of silence."

These pictured are indeed real Trial mags made by FDF, yet alot were destroyed once proven weak and when SAKO bought Valmet (or however that went about happening), alot were found in crates and those are what hit the market and circulated, just not in huge numbers.

Also, I have recently learned that their is a board containing "86 Colors/variations" that have been gathered and are in a museum, possibly in the city of Helsinki. Would love to see pics of this "board" if true, have been told this by 2 people in Finland that know their stuff.
We have to wait and see if a board of coloured mags appear on this site. As it was a trial, it might filed under classified materials and therefore not exist in the public places. Just check out the debate around our current camouflage patterns and see how fiercely we have defended it from being copied by Chinese and Russians. Just hang on to your rare mags and they will be ten times more valuable in twenty years.
 
#8
Another thing that you should take in account in the Information Warfare and Espionage aspect that dwells around these subject. We know that these forums are read by our eastern neighbours and there are thing people here only talk in native Finnish to make it harder for them to understand as it's one of the hardest language in world. A single word can have multiple meaning depending on the condition. Hence Google's translation doesn't always work. They might even read really awkward, if not somewhat funny.



The problem with thing is the US admiration and during last previous decades some people were foolish and ordered perfectly usable material to be destroyed (read cannons, tanks, gun recycled back to raw materials) but a lot of other stuff has been sent to museums. In fact, Finland is one of those countries where you can find a lot of still usable items in display racks, restored to almost pristine conditions. And I think this place might be able to help you, if people here keeps shy on the matters

http://maanpuolustuskorkeakoulu.fi/en/military-museum





Correct. It is another our "sins." We collect loads of stuff and really not talk about our treasures, because of the old mentality of not throwing away anything that might be useful down the years. But about attending forums I wouldn't be so sure as "chatting" is also one of those "sins." We like to debate about things, especially after couple of cool ones. And give a Finn a mobile and you cannot really stop them from talking. But take it away and we are immediately back to the "culture of silence."



We have to wait and see if a board of coloured mags appear on this site. As it was a trial, it might filed under classified materials and therefore not exist in the public places. Just check out the debate around our current camouflage patterns and see how fiercely we have defended it from being copied by Chinese and Russians. Just hang on to your rare mags and they will be ten times more valuable in twenty years.
Thanks for all of the info! Sounds like Finland is a very unified country that shares the same values.

I'm 30 yrds old and I know my country (USA) used to be that way much more in the past than now, being now, the media and pop culture has separated alot of people, alot of racial issues, distrust, and a young generation that is growing up differently and reliant on technology and pop culture that is changing the outlook on life it appears. Some cities in other states remind you of other countries they are so different. Even in the same state you may live in, Cities that are 1 hour apart are totally different in the way people act and the mannerisms, yet some parts of the country share a strong culture, mainly the rural areas that arent as heavily populated (like where I live) still appreciate the values and our heritage, same as you speak of the Finnish people having, so I was raised in a similar manner.

About mags and such, being out about 20 years now, that is one reason I offer 10 or so times the amount they originally costed and take that factor into mind. Some folks collect and may want to keep, and some folks may just have something that they bought do not care much about which I would value more as part of a collection, which is who I am looking for. Or collectors who want to make a good profit aswell.

I plan to keep the collection, I collect other mags aswell but most are already here in the states, but your country and it's people seem very nice so one reason I've gotten onto Finnish forums and contacted Finnish people and businesses to see what I can find.

I really appreciate the culture talk, I've heard Finland is a very nice country to visit (or live in) and would love to visit one day!

Also would be cool if pics of that "board" of mags ever show up, but makes sense that it could be private as I heard it may be in a depot, or war museum and I would guess that people cannot just go and visit military depots.
 

ctg

Ylipäällikkö
#9
Thanks for all of the info!
Your welcome. I know from my own personal experience that it is so frustrating, when people don't say anything. They rather be keep quiet and honestly, I don't know. Maybe it is fear that keeps them grounded, because as far as I'm concerned a diplomatic answer is better than total silence. If only to not make it more awkward and possible cause an incident.

I would guess that people cannot just go and visit military depots.
They do. Believe me. Even the foreign people make special interest to visit our museums. In last year a group of Japanese manga lover made their way to Parola's tank museum just to take selfies and pose at front of one of the captured tanks. It's just the prototypes might not have not made to a display, because they might still retain a classified status.

But, luckily, and through the advance of the internet and some American enthusiasts we are slowly beginning to understand the true value of our military heritage. Hopefully one day that photo might surface itself in here. But before that have to happen, we have to be patient. Sorry. :)
 
#10
Your welcome. I know from my own personal experience that it is so frustrating, when people don't say anything. They rather be keep quiet and honestly, I don't know. Maybe it is fear that keeps them grounded, because as far as I'm concerned a diplomatic answer is better than total silence. If only to not make it more awkward and possible cause an incident.



They do. Believe me. Even the foreign people make special interest to visit our museums. In last year a group of Japanese manga lover made their way to Parola's tank museum just to take selfies and pose at front of one of the captured tanks. It's just the prototypes might not have not made to a display, because they might still retain a classified status.

But, luckily, and through the advance of the internet and some American enthusiasts we are slowly beginning to understand the true value of our military heritage. Hopefully one day that photo might surface itself in here. But before that have to happen, we have to be patient. Sorry. :)
Yea, makes alot of sense, one guy on a forum said how his friend or friends had some he said "they do not like 'borrowing' as they have had bad experiences".

I asked him what he meant as borrowing, being I was asking to pay them and buy, but I think it was a matter of his English being bad but after that point he would never respond again.

Alot of the guys who buy and sell on the gunshow circuit are the most helpful and know the down low info or theories, and know the most info as they have close ties, but have also been told the Fins didn't document alot of their teats and destroyed alot of stuff, their are rumors here in the US that the Bulgarians made some colored protos to help the Bulgarians out being both are waffle pattern and look nearly the same, Bulgarian waffle ((10)) Mags do not have side loop though but are the strongest plastic/polymer Mags you can get.

Plus I have spoken to a guy who able to go through the crates of FDF stuff and handpicked out tons of stuff, including the type of mags I speak of. Have alot of info from other sources, and some was mentioned in a book in Finland written by a colonel or General, yet it doesn't cover much, just names a few colors and then speaks on the green color making it to a 2nd phase of testing.

Something I have noticed, seems if someone isn't willing to sell but slips and mentions it, they just will not respond and avoid any communications. To each their own though, not saying everyone is the same.

It is different to me being on forums here, being alot of Americans will posts pictures just to show off even if not selling, some just to rub it in your face what they have. Ive yet to show a single Fin Mags to anyone that is unique being it took so much hard work (and I do mean hard work when you live in the US and seek out actual people that own a Mags you are looking for) so knowing how much time I have put into building my collection, I have this obsession with keeping them private. Its odd you mention that is how the Fin people are with items, being I treat my Fin mags that way, unlike other origin mags!

Seems the Finnish people are much more humble and I like that.

Also, about depots, they are private Military storage facilities/warehouses, correct?

Im not the best on world history, but what countries have Finland had conflict with in the past 50 or so years?

Always assumed it was a very peaceful country, yet I know it has a large Army and that the RK95 is said to be superior to the AK47 in accuracy.

I know Bulgaria is very quiet also, ive yet to find a Bulgarian forum or find out if the black waffle ((10)) molded Mags are even available in that country to citizens. They supply 1 company in the US that supplies civilians which has exclusive rights and is the only US company they sale to.

I mention being alot of times the rifles or magazines are unavailable as they apparently supply many other countries for mil contracts and the US company gets the remainders in alot of cases if a special rifle, although have no clue what those countries are. They're civilian gun laws in Bulgaria may be very strict though. The waffle Mags used to be $5 but once that company took over, they know it is the best quality you can buy in the US and charge ALOT... Mags went from $5 and rifles around $400-500 when one guy had the only connection to Arsenal of Bulgaria, once he was out of the picture the current company went to $45 per steel reinforced polymer ((10)) Mag. That company charges ALOT for each rifle ($950-$1300) depending if stamped metal, or milled metal receiver. They are nice but you can rub the paint off of it of you look at it the wrong way.

Long story short, I read that hundreds of thousands of RK95s were going to be getting destroyed, yet it confused me as I had heard FDF does not dispose of anything that can be of use, and that they plan to use that rifle possibly up until 2030 something (forgot exact date).

Then after hearing that, I hear they are destroying new rifles by the hundreds of thousands. Why do are destroying rifles that they could make ALOT of money for each one sold on civilian market in Europe? Or is it due to the fact they likely do not want to sale them and risk any other country getting that rifle in their hands being its such a good rifle?

Just figured I would mention Incase you read the same. Just a matter of what seems like Finland destroying millions of dollars of rifles to avoid anyone getting, yet Bulgaria makes them for countries.

Shows the overall good mindset in Finland that you menton if that is the case. Finland protects Finland, and Bulgaria may profit from conflict.
 
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ctg

Ylipäällikkö
#11
Long story short, I read that hundreds of thousands of RK95s were going to be getting destroyed, yet it confused me as I had heard FDF does not dispose of anything that can be of use, and that they plan to use that rifle possibly up until 2030 something (forgot exact date).

Then after hearing that, I hear they are destroying new rifles by the hundreds of thousands. Why do are destroying rifles that they could make ALOT of money for each one sold on civilian market in Europe? Or is it due to the fact they likely do not want to sale them and risk any other country getting that rifle in their hands being its such a good rifle?
The destruction is on going matter around the world. It happens. And we thought we were good at it, because we recycle almost everything. It is an ideology that has got quite popular during the peacetime because we simply didn't had anything and living in a large cold country there are only so many resources that we can access. Therefore recycling old hardware is an unfortunate necessity as you have to get somehow your money back.

It also holds back invention if you hang on to your material and never advance with the science. You Americans have made it very plain to many people. The technology is the master in this game. Or at least a force multiplier. But what you don't see, even though you can clearly see it in your post that people doesn't understand how rare it is to be a Finn. Or even own a FDF official surplus piece as our number are very low compared to the masses of Americans.

With just five million people, we are just a drop in this ocean that contains now more than five billion individuals. So the rarity of you finding the prototypes tells how truly rare they are to you. To us, just prototypes, a model in long line of tests that hasn't really stopped. We are always looking for that next thing.

It is like I've said in before, there is no need for us currently change the battle rifle or anything related as long as our current ammo is still valid. We assumed that everyone else would have done the same. But it's seems that it's not a case even though to us Finns it's evident. It's just how you do things. You also invent better and use the best possible, because there is no other way.

Living in North is one thing, but living in dark, harsh North is totally another. And living next to to bear, you learn to respect that certain things aren't given. So, when we destroy guns or other valuable items, it's because we have to. But I don't think it's fully disclosed to say that we also learn from our mistakes. Just like it has been with M39. Or coloured mags. The official stuff that has Torni logo somewhere, that's most valued, because it's the best we can give to our troops.

Numbers are always going to be low. And they are most definitely recorded somewhere. Don't ask me where because I couldn't give you that answer. I just simply don't know. Sorry.
 
#12
Also, I have recently learned that their is a board containing "86 Colors/variations" that have been gathered and are in a museum, possibly in the city of Helsinki. Would love to see pics of this "board" if true, have been told this by 2 people in Finland that know their stuff.
I found out that those magazines are closely Sako related possibly even made at the Sako factory. So it is possible that the museum you mentioned is The Hunting Museum of Finland (Suomen Metsästysmuseo) located in Riihimäki, 40 miles north from Helsinki. Also the Sako factory has been in Riihimäki since 1927.



A brief introduction to The Hunting Museum in English http://www.metsastysmuseo.fi/international/english.php

The Hunting Museum used to have Sako-sali (Sako Room) where products of Finnish arms industry were introduced. Jukka Peltonen, curator of the museum has written a book (39 pages, in Finnish) about it. As you can see from the cover of the book assault rifles were strongly represented there.



Today Sako-sali (Sako Room) has been substituted by Asesali (Arms Room).


Asesali (Arms Room). Curator Jukka Peltonen (left) and Sako's cartridge development manager (retired) Erkki Kauppi (right).

If you don't have a better idea, I would recommend that you ask Jukka Peltonen about those 86 magazines. I guess he knows whether that board exists or has existed as well as about its whereabouts.

Email of Jukka Peltonen is: jukka[dot]peltonen[at]metsastysmuseo[dot]fi
 
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#13
I found out that those magazines are closely Sako related possibly even made at the Sako factory. So it is possible that the museum you mentioned is The Hunting Museum of Finland (Suomen Metsästysmuseo) located in Riihimäki, 40 miles north from Helsinki. Also the Sako factory has been in Riihimäki since 1927.



A brief introduction to The Hunting Museum in English http://www.metsastysmuseo.fi/international/english.php

The Hunting Museum used to have Sako-sali (Sako Room) where products of Finnish arms industry were introduced. Jukka Peltonen, curator of the museum has written a book (39 pages, in Finnish) about it. As you can see from the cover of the book assault rifles were strongly represented there.



Today Sako-sali (Sako Room) has been substituted by Asesali (Arms Room).


Asesali (Arms Room). Curator Jukka Peltonen (left) and Sako's cartridge development manager (retired) Erkki Kauppi (right).

If you don't have a better idea, I would recommend that you ask Jukka Peltonen about those 86 magazines. I guess he knows whether that board exists or has existed as well as about its whereabouts.

Email of Jukka Peltonen is: jukka[dot]peltonen[at]metsastysmuseo[dot]fi
Thanks for the info.

I contacted him they have nothing like that, he gave me some references though of other museums.

Thanks again