Tykistö

magitsu kirjoitti:
What? We are expecting 100 million deal for less than 3 million apiece.
200 million is maybe possible, but not 400.
Used K9 shouldn't really cost more than 3 if better new PzH2000 flies off the shelf for 5.
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A 400 million deal for 48 used K9s with support seems way too high, I agree, although a new PzH 2000 will surely set you back much more than 5 million. If the Korean news sources are not mistaken, it seems Finland acted foolishly when we did not empty the shelves of the European surplus market in time. Used PzH 2000s have been available for like 3 or 4 million a piece and I doubt those have come with no support material at all.

The K9s better be coming with a huge shipment of 155 mm ammunition! But I do not find even that very likely as we have our own ammunition industry to support.
 
leijonajatiikeri kirjoitti:
I would really prefer it if Korea could come to an agreement where Suomi can find it acceptable to purchase 48 guns or however many are needed that meets their defence needs rather than budgetary expediency. I still do not think there is going to be a better tykistöjärjestelmien for the price.
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Maybe, but we do know that the Army doesn't have purchase authorization for much past 100 million range.
The whole Finnish Defence Forces uses 600 million per year for materiel.

In this article Col. Pasi Pasivirta, the Director of Artillery in the FDF is quoted. He expected to get dozens for "around 100 million or little past that". It's also indicated that he refers to closing end of negotiations ("on muodostumassa" aka "is shaping"), not his beliefs before talking to ROK/Hanwha.
Pasivirran mukaan käytetyt korealaiset panssarihaupitsit ovat noin puolta halvempia uusiin verrattuna.

Tykistöhankinnan hinnaksi on muodostumassa "noin sata miljoonaa tai vähän yli".

Sillä rahalla saa panssarihaupitseja "kymmeniä", mutta tarkempaa määrää Pasivirta ei neuvottelujen tässä vaiheessa halua paljastaa.
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http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016070521849603_uu.shtml
 
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Huhta kirjoitti:
A 400 million deal for 48 used K9s with support seems way too high, I agree, although a new PzH 2000 will surely set you back much more than 5 million. If the Korean news sources are not mistaken, it seems Finland acted foolishly when we did not empty the shelves of the European surplus market in time. Used PzH 2000s have been available for like 3 or 4 million a piece and I doubt those have come with no support material at all.

The K9s better be coming with a huge shipment of 155 mm ammunition! But I do not find even that very likely as we have our own ammunition industry to support.
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And we have the knowledge to upgrade those. (No joke). ;)
 
Either the number of guns is much bigger than 48 or the price is not correct, you are free to choose.


- Puhutaan noin kymmenen vuotta käytössä olleesta kalustosta. Niillä on elinikää jäljellä yli 30 vuotta, kertoo tykistön tarkastaja, eversti Pasi Pasivirta Maavoimien esikunnasta.

- Olen nähnyt niitä paikan päällä Etelä-Koreassa, ne ovat erittäin hyväkuntoisia ja ihan uuden veroisia.

Pasivirran mukaan käytetyt korealaiset panssarihaupitsit ovat noin puolta halvempia uusiin verrattuna.

Tykistöhankinnan hinnaksi on muodostumassa "noin sata miljoonaa tai vähän yli".

Sillä rahalla saa panssarihaupitseja "kymmeniä", mutta tarkempaa määrää Pasivirta ei neuvottelujen tässä vaiheessa halua paljastaa.
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http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016070521849603_uu.shtml
 
leijonajatiikeri kirjoitti:
I'm not sure what Korea will do with the lost 48 guns, maybe we buy 48 new ones from Hanwha. If so, we might be losing money on this deal to make the norja ja tanska deals more likely. (And maybe all Nordic K9 maintenance will be done in Suomi? Probably they demand their own maintenance facilities but it's a probability.)
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Koreans are selling older models, possibly those ones that have been used for training and may be reasonably worn down. These guns may be of older model than the ones now in production and would need to be modernised if they intend to keep up with the capabilities of the newer ones.

To put it shortly: Koreans may not be losing any money at all and any other deals they might get are just a bonus.
 
Huhta kirjoitti:
A 400 million deal for 48 used K9s with support seems way too high, I agree, although a new PzH 2000 will surely set you back much more than 5 million. If the Korean news sources are not mistaken, it seems Finland acted foolishly when we did not empty the shelves of the European surplus market in time. Used PzH 2000s have been available for like 3 or 4 million a piece and I doubt those have come with no support material at all.

The K9s better be coming with a huge shipment of 155 mm ammunition! But I do not find even that very likely as we have our own ammunition industry to support.
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I agree that for a used platform it doesn't seem to be any better than new, which would be very disappointing to the users here. But the maintenance contract seems to be very expensive and points towards a more comprehensive deal than a simple support contract that comes with any sale, maybe Finland is trying to lay the foundation for future purchases by setting up some very strong infrastructure that will be useful later? This approach would have it's own risks of course.
magitsu kirjoitti:
Maybe, but we know that Army doesn't have purchase authorization for much past the 100 million range.
The whole FDF uses 600 million per year for materiel.

In this article Pasi Pasivirta, the Artillery Inspector for Finnish Army is quoted. He expected to get dozens for "around 100m or little past that".
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016070521849603_uu.shtml
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Could that be 'cheated' by setting it up as a loan for 48 at X cost for Y years and automatic buy for Finland at the end of the lease for 0 cost?

Talvela kirjoitti:
Either the number of guns is much bigger than 48 or the price is not correct, you are free to choose.




http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016070521849603_uu.shtml
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I freely admit the Etelä-korea uutiset could be wrong and thus this conversation might be misleading everyone. My apologies in advance if that turns out to be the case.
 
SJ kirjoitti:
Koreans are selling older models, possibly those ones that have been used for training and may be reasonably worn down. These guns may be of older model than the ones now in production and would need to be modernised if they intend to keep up with the capabilities of the newer ones.

To put it shortly: Koreans may not be losing any money at all and any other deals they might get are just a bonus.
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Read what Pasivirta commented above, they are good as new and at half price.
 
leijonajatiikeri kirjoitti:
I agree that for a used platform it doesn't seem to be any better than new, which would be very disappointing to the users here. But the maintenance contract seems to be very expensive and points towards a more comprehensive deal than a simple support contract that comes with any sale, maybe Finland is trying to lay the foundation for future purchases by setting up some very strong infrastructure that will be useful later? This approach would have it's own risks of course.


Could that be 'cheated' by setting it up as a loan for 48 at X cost for Y years and automatic buy for Finland at the end of the lease for 0 cost?


I freely admit the Etelä-korea uutiset could be wrong and thus this conversation might be misleading everyone. My apologies in advance if that turns out to be the case.
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Some might be going for our coastal artillery, they just lost their guns.
 
leijonajatiikeri kirjoitti:
Could that be 'cheated' by setting it up as a loan for 48 at X cost for Y years and automatic buy for Finland at the end of the lease for 0 cost?
I freely admit the Etelä-korea uutiset could be wrong and thus this conversation might be misleading everyone. My apologies in advance if that turns out to be the case.
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No.
I think that the news source might get the price wrong by assuming that we intend to buy NEW K9s.
Did the video say anything about that? Or about K10 loading vehicles, which we aren't sure about if FDF is buying?
Director of Artillery Pasivirta is the most reliable source you could get on this side and he said "used for half the cost". That's what we have to rely on if detailed sources on your end can't be found.
 
@leijonajatiikeri

Would you be willing to tell something about yourself (background etc.)? What is your relation to K9, have you perhaps served with them in the ROK Army?

Anyway, 200 million for support/maintenance seems pretty high for a self-propelled howitzer deal. Do you think there is any possibility of starting a Finnish production line (on license) or something along those lines? (I know, it is very unlikely considering our monetary resources...)

Pistemaali kirjoitti:
And we have the knowledge to upgrade those. (No joke). ;)
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I do not get this. Who would like to upgrade something like K9? We are not talking about M109s here. Is this about the Patriot missiles?

Talvela kirjoitti:
Some might be going for our coastal artillery, they just lost their guns.
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If 48 is the correct number, then those will be only for our land forces.
 
magitsu kirjoitti:
No.
I think that the news source might get the price wrong by assuming that we intend to buy NEW K9s.
Did the video say anything about that? Or about K10 loading vehicles, which we aren't sure about if FDF is buying?
Director of Artillery Pasivirta is the most reliable source you could get on this side and he said "used for half the cost". That's what we have to rely on if detailed sources on your end can't be found.
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The Korean report is some very bad journalism unfortunately, doesn't even have a vague mention of 'inside sources'. But, it's weasel wording itself out of the price as not exact but estimations but it seems sure of the fact it's a deal for 48 used howitzers. Also the news is always exceedingly inaccurate on military matters anyway.

Talvela kirjoitti:
Leijonatiikeri, can I ask who are you and what is your interest in FDF?
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Huhta kirjoitti:
@leijonajatiikeri

Would you be willing to tell something about yourself (background etc.)? What is your relation to K9, have you perhaps served with them in the ROK Army?

Anyway, 200 million for support/maintenance seems pretty high for a self-propelled howitzer deal. Do you think there is any possibility of starting a Finnish production line (on license) or something along those lines? (I know, it is very unlikely considering our monetary resources...)



I do not get this. Who would like to upgrade something like K9? We are not talking about M109s here. Is this about the Patriot missiles?



If 48 is the correct number, then those will be only for our land forces.
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I'm just a Korean with interest in Military technology that has a good command of the English language and can use google translate. I look on other national forums as well but this is the first time I post so I hope I'm not being rude by forcing people to use English. I haven't served in the Korean Military just yet but I will be starting very soon. I'm very much not an expert.
 
leijonajatiikeri kirjoitti:
The Korean report is some very bad journalism unfortunately, doesn't even have a vague mention of 'inside sources'. But, it's weasel wording itself out of the price as not exact but estimations but it seems sure of the fact it's a deal for 48 used howitzers. Also the news is always exceedingly inaccurate on military matters anyway.

Why finnish nick?



I'm just a Korean with interest in Military technology that has a good command of the English language and can use google translate. I look on other national forums as well but this is the first time I post so I hope I'm not being rude by forcing people to use English. I haven't served in the Korean Military just yet but I will be starting very soon. I'm very much not an expert.
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Huhta kirjoitti:
Rannari ja Hanski, titta här!

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/GMLRS.html



273000000/2172 = ~126 000€



48 kpl jaettuna todennäköisesti neljään patteriin á 12 tykkiä.
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Jopa neljään patteristoon. Kaksi mekanisoiduille tst-osastoille ja toiset kaksi toivottavasti KARJPR:lle. Tai sitten yksi psto per etelän valmiusprikaati. Hyvinkin odotettu määrä.

Olen nähnyt muuallakin mainittavan tuon hinnan noin 100k€ per GMLRS. Siinä ei vain ole tuo FMS-ilmoitus huomioiden mitään järkeä. Eihän tuollaisen kaluston koulutus ja huoltosysteemit voi maksaa 100 miljoonaa euroa. Joku heittää taas ja pahasti. Tuolla rahalla pitää saada vapaa valmistuslisenssi ja tehdas.
 
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