Ukrainan konflikti/sota

[Lahtinen]

Ilta-Sanomilta harvinaisen hyvä yhteenveto noista "neuvotteluista":

Kommentti: Yksi viesti on jo paljastanut totuuden kohusta – Venäjän ja USA:n suunnitelmasta jäi tärkeä asia huomaamatta

Venäjällä on selkeät syyt vuotaa julkisuuteen keskeneräinen paperi, joka hyödyttää vain sitä itseään, asettaa Ukrainan vaikeaan asemaan, aiheuttaa hämmennystä Euroopassa ja nolaa Yhdysvallat, kirjoittaa politiikan toimittaja Iida Hallikainen.

www.is.fi

"Rubion viesti paljastaa totuuden koko kohusta: vaikuttaa siltä, että Witkoffin ja Dmitrievin lista oli keskeneräinen idealista Venäjän toiveista, jonka ei pitänyt vuotaa julkisuuteen. Siinä ei vielä ollut Ukrainan kantaa, eikä Ukrainan toiveita.

Seuraavaksi voikin kysyä, miksi ihmeessä paperi vuodettiin julkisuuteen?

Syitä voi olla monia, mutta jos pohditaan laajemmin tilannetta ja Venäjän motiiveja, ei paperin vuotaminen julkisuuteen oikeastaan edes vaikuta niin kummalliselta.

Eurooppa käy juuri keskustelua Venäjän jäädytettyjen varojen antamisesta Ukrainan käyttöön. Asian toteutuminen ei tietenkään ole millään tavalla varma, mutta ei se Venäjän korviin hyvältä kuulosta. Lisäksi Yhdysvallat on sopinut uusista pakotteista, jotka ovat vasta astumassa voimaan. Olemme saaneet Yhdysvalloista uutisia, joiden mukaan kongressi saattaisi olla viimein tukemassa laajempia pakotteita Venäjän kumppanimaille.

Tässä on valtava lista syitä Venäjälle vuotaa julkisuuteen keskeneräinen paperi, joka hyödyttää vain sitä itseään, asettaa Ukrainan vaikeaan asemaan, aiheuttaa hämmennystä Euroopassa ja nolaa Yhdysvallat."

En usko pätkääkään, että venäjä olisi tosissaan mukana noissa neuvotteluissa. Siellä tasan tiedetään, että Eurooppa ja Ukraina ei suostu tuon kaltaiseen sopimukseen ja taas vastaavasti sellaista sopimusta ei tule, mikä putinille kelpaa. Joten, eikähän tuo kaikki ole osa ryssän informaatio kampanjaa, jolla nyt yritetään perimmiltään saamaan lännen tuki Ukrainalle vähenemään.

Ja voihan olla, että tulossa on hyvin tyypillinen eskalaatio/de-eskalaatio painostus, joka kuuluu ryssän vakio temppuihin.

 

[Benelli]

Mitä ihmeen uusia joukkohautoja?

Ei tässä tuoreehkossa jutussa ole mitään uusia joukkohautoja kuvattuna. Sen sijaan on katkeruutta siitä, että Venäjä ei jostain syystä halua, että Mariupol on ukrainalainen.

Satelliiteista kuvattuja. Yksin se että örkkien doktriiniin kuuluu siviilien tappaminen itsetarkoituksena kertoo paljon.

 

[barbarossa]

Iltelehti kaivanut taas ryssän kertomaan meille vähä faktoja!! Toki kaikkien tiedossa on et Ukrainassa on näitä ongelmia mut tämä nyt on nii suoraan taas ryssän pelikirjasta että kyllä minua hävettäisi olla se joka päättää mitä paskaa päästetään läpi. Ei sillä et olisin edes lukenut alkua pidemmälle kun tuli hyvin selväksi mikä tämän jutun tarkoitus oli.

Analyysi: Zelenskyin lähipiiri pakenee maasta – Mädännäisyydestä paljastui vasta jäävuoren huippu

Korruptioskandaali paljastaa samaan aikaan hallinnon mädännäisyyden sekä maan instituutioiden ja kansalaisyhteiskunnan päättäväisyyden, kirjoittaa Iltalehden ulkomaantoimittaja Mikael Shepelenko.

www.iltalehti.fi

Tämä toimittaja Shepelenko on venäjän agentti ilmiselvästi, pitäisi ottaa kiinni. Toivottavasti on edes jonkinlaisessa seurannassa.

 

[Thealoz]

Ukrainan mediassa olisi ilmeisesti tämä sopimusluonnostelma kokonaisuudessaan.

Doc circulating in Ukrainian media is said to be the 28-point plan. It's not as absurd and dire as has been reported -- it's even more so. Eng. translation follows.

N.B. I absolutely love point 3: "it is expected" Russia won't invade anyone else. Cool. Plus, America profits from rebuilding what Putin bombed to smithereens and all Russian war criminals are amnestied. They should call this plan "the Aristocrats."

1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive and comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. US guarantee:

The US will receive compensation for the guarantee.

If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee.

If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked.

If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

a. The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centres, and artificial intelligence.

b. The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.

c. Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.

d. Infrastructure development.

e. Extraction of minerals and natural resources.

f. The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

a. The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.

14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

a. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

b. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education.

c. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.

21. Territories:

a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian, including by the United States.

b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.

c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.

d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone, internationally recognised as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarised zone.

22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis.

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.

c. A family reunification programme will be implemented.

d. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1991607955737776217

 

[Thealoz]

Ukrainan mediassa olisi ilmeisesti tämä sopimusluonnostelma kokonaisuudessaan.

Doc circulating in Ukrainian media is said to be the 28-point plan. It's not as absurd and dire as has been reported -- it's even more so. Eng. translation follows.

N.B. I absolutely love point 3: "it is expected" Russia won't invade anyone else. Cool. Plus, America profits from rebuilding what Putin bombed to smithereens and all Russian war criminals are amnestied. They should call this plan "the Aristocrats."

1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive and comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. US guarantee:

The US will receive compensation for the guarantee.

If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee.

If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked.

If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

a. The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centres, and artificial intelligence.

b. The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.

c. Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.

d. Infrastructure development.

e. Extraction of minerals and natural resources.

f. The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

a. The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.

14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

a. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

b. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education.

c. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.

21. Territories:

a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian, including by the United States.

b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.

c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.

d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone, internationally recognised as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarised zone.

22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis.

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.

c. A family reunification programme will be implemented.

d. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1991607955737776217

Vastaan itselleni. Paljon mielisairaiden kirjoittamia kohtia.

 

[Janatuinen]

Ukrainan mediassa olisi ilmeisesti tämä sopimusluonnostelma kokonaisuudessaan.

Doc circulating in Ukrainian media is said to be the 28-point plan. It's not as absurd and dire as has been reported -- it's even more so. Eng. translation follows.

N.B. I absolutely love point 3: "it is expected" Russia won't invade anyone else. Cool. Plus, America profits from rebuilding what Putin bombed to smithereens and all Russian war criminals are amnestied. They should call this plan "the Aristocrats."

1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive and comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. US guarantee:

The US will receive compensation for the guarantee.

If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee.

If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked.

If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

a. The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centres, and artificial intelligence.

b. The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.

c. Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.

d. Infrastructure development.

e. Extraction of minerals and natural resources.

f. The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

a. The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.

14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

a. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

b. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education.

c. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.

21. Territories:

a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian, including by the United States.

b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.

c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.

d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone, internationally recognised as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarised zone.

22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis.

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.

c. A family reunification programme will be implemented.

d. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1991607955737776217

Kohta 28. on erityisen naurettava. Ukrainan pitäisi tuosta noin vaan käydä vetäytymään Donbassin alueelta ja mahdollinen tulitauko astuisi voimaan vasta sen jälkeen...

 

[viimeinen mohikaani]

Jenkkien Merops antidroonidroonin pitäisi olla varsinainen Shahedien tappaja:

Markkinamiesten mukaan systeemi käyttää tekoälyä ja huhujen mukaan se olisi jo käytössä Ukrainassa. Plussaa perunapyssystä, millä aparaatti ammutaan taivaalle. Näyttää toimivalta eikä kertakäyttöistä rakettimoottoria tarvita.

 

[TkTetsari]

Ilta-Sanomilta harvinaisen hyvä yhteenveto noista "neuvotteluista":

Kommentti: Yksi viesti on jo paljastanut totuuden kohusta – Venäjän ja USA:n suunnitelmasta jäi tärkeä asia huomaamatta

Venäjällä on selkeät syyt vuotaa julkisuuteen keskeneräinen paperi, joka hyödyttää vain sitä itseään, asettaa Ukrainan vaikeaan asemaan, aiheuttaa hämmennystä Euroopassa ja nolaa Yhdysvallat, kirjoittaa politiikan toimittaja Iida Hallikainen.

www.is.fi

"Rubion viesti paljastaa totuuden koko kohusta: vaikuttaa siltä, että Witkoffin ja Dmitrievin lista oli keskeneräinen idealista Venäjän toiveista, jonka ei pitänyt vuotaa julkisuuteen. Siinä ei vielä ollut Ukrainan kantaa, eikä Ukrainan toiveita.

Seuraavaksi voikin kysyä, miksi ihmeessä paperi vuodettiin julkisuuteen?

Syitä voi olla monia, mutta jos pohditaan laajemmin tilannetta ja Venäjän motiiveja, ei paperin vuotaminen julkisuuteen oikeastaan edes vaikuta niin kummalliselta.

Eurooppa käy juuri keskustelua Venäjän jäädytettyjen varojen antamisesta Ukrainan käyttöön. Asian toteutuminen ei tietenkään ole millään tavalla varma, mutta ei se Venäjän korviin hyvältä kuulosta. Lisäksi Yhdysvallat on sopinut uusista pakotteista, jotka ovat vasta astumassa voimaan. Olemme saaneet Yhdysvalloista uutisia, joiden mukaan kongressi saattaisi olla viimein tukemassa laajempia pakotteita Venäjän kumppanimaille.

Tässä on valtava lista syitä Venäjälle vuotaa julkisuuteen keskeneräinen paperi, joka hyödyttää vain sitä itseään, asettaa Ukrainan vaikeaan asemaan, aiheuttaa hämmennystä Euroopassa ja nolaa Yhdysvallat."

En usko pätkääkään, että venäjä olisi tosissaan mukana noissa neuvotteluissa. Siellä tasan tiedetään, että Eurooppa ja Ukraina ei suostu tuon kaltaiseen sopimukseen ja taas vastaavasti sellaista sopimusta ei tule, mikä putinille kelpaa. Joten, eikähän tuo kaikki ole osa ryssän informaatio kampanjaa, jolla nyt yritetään perimmiltään saamaan lännen tuki Ukrainalle vähenemään.

Ja voihan olla, että tulossa on hyvin tyypillinen eskalaatio/de-eskalaatio painostus, joka kuuluu ryssän vakio temppuihin.

Juuri näin.

Miksi Yhdysvallat lisäisi pakotteita ja sitten samaan aikaan kätilöisi tuollaisen paskasopparin?

Ja mikä siinä on, että sama ryssän kaava menee joka kerta läpi - tälläkin foorumilla? Mitään edellisistä kerroista oppimatta.

Onko se vain tarve päästä haukkumaan Trump sopimuksesta, joka ihan-kohta-just-ja-viimeistään-nyt-tällä-kertaa tehdään ja jossa ryssille annetaan kaikki? Kaikki.

 

[Thealoz]

Juuri näin.

Miksi Yhdysvallat lisäisi pakotteita ja sitten samaan aikaan kätilöisi tuollaisen paskasopparin?

Ja mikä siinä on, että sama ryssän kaava menee joka kerta läpi - tälläkin foorumilla? Mitään edellisistä kerroista oppimatta.

Onko se vain tarve päästä haukkumaan Trump sopimuksesta, joka ihan-kohta-just-ja-viimeistään-nyt-tällä-kertaa tehdään ja jossa ryssille annetaan kaikki? Kaikki.

Eikös tässä langassa ole tarkoitus keskustella juurikin päivän polttavista aiheista liittyen sotaan? Ei kai kukaan ole väittänyt että nämä ehdot tämmöisinä menisi läpi ja varsinkin, viime tietojen mukaan, että pitäisi olla vieläpä marraskuun alkuun mennessä nimet paperissa Zelellä.

Kuten todettu, Yhdysvallat toimii kaksilla rattailla. Siellä on herra oranssi, joka päästää mitä sylki suuhun tuo sekä hänen hännystelijät ja sitten Rubio, tietyt senaattorit vastapainona. Ulkopolitiikka on sen näköistä.