Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
No sitten meni siihen vitoseen
De Gaulle kuitenkin liittyy tähän juttuun. Ja Eisenhower.
Kysymys- ja vastaustopiikki
- Viestiketjun aloittaja vehamala
- Aloitus PVM
De Gaulle kuitenkin liittyy tähän juttuun. Ja Eisenhower.
Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
Kyllä! Tulihan se sieltä. @nurmipora jatkaa. Alla vähän höpöttelyä aiheesta.
Choltitz’s orders, originating with Adolf Hitler himself, were to destroy bridges, major buildings, and other key facilities in the city rather than let it fall into Allied hands undamaged. Recognizing the military futility of these orders and repelled by their barbarity, Choltitz instead agreed to a truce with French Resistance forces in the city and handed over Paris unscathed to General Jacques-Philippe Leclerc on August 25, 1944.
Choltitz was held in a prisoner-of-war camp in the United States until 1947, whereupon he returned to Germany. Snubbed by fellow former officers, he wrote a book, Brennt Paris? (1951), in which he defended his disobedience of a leader who, he felt, had gone mad.
If for the first time I had disobeyed, it was because I knew that Hitler was insane.
I was at Stalingrad, you know... And from that time onwards I have done nothing but manoeuvre to escape encirclement by the enemy: retreat on retreat, defeat upon defeat. And here I am in marvellous Paris. What do you think is going to happen now?
Choltitz died in November 1966 from a longstanding war illness in the city hospital of Baden-Baden. He was buried at the city cemetery of Baden-Baden in the presence of high-ranking French officers, including colonels Wagner (Military Commander of Baden-Baden), Ravinel, and Omézon.[16] Baden-Baden was the French headquarters in Germany after the end of the Second World War.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...zi-governor-Dietrich-von-Choltitz-saved-Paris
Edit. Muut lähteet Britannica ja Wiki
Choltitz’s orders, originating with Adolf Hitler himself, were to destroy bridges, major buildings, and other key facilities in the city rather than let it fall into Allied hands undamaged. Recognizing the military futility of these orders and repelled by their barbarity, Choltitz instead agreed to a truce with French Resistance forces in the city and handed over Paris unscathed to General Jacques-Philippe Leclerc on August 25, 1944.
Choltitz was held in a prisoner-of-war camp in the United States until 1947, whereupon he returned to Germany. Snubbed by fellow former officers, he wrote a book, Brennt Paris? (1951), in which he defended his disobedience of a leader who, he felt, had gone mad.
If for the first time I had disobeyed, it was because I knew that Hitler was insane.
- About refusing to obey Hitler's orders. Quoted in a 1964 interview.
I was at Stalingrad, you know... And from that time onwards I have done nothing but manoeuvre to escape encirclement by the enemy: retreat on retreat, defeat upon defeat. And here I am in marvellous Paris. What do you think is going to happen now?
Choltitz died in November 1966 from a longstanding war illness in the city hospital of Baden-Baden. He was buried at the city cemetery of Baden-Baden in the presence of high-ranking French officers, including colonels Wagner (Military Commander of Baden-Baden), Ravinel, and Omézon.[16] Baden-Baden was the French headquarters in Germany after the end of the Second World War.
Leaving Hitler’s forest compound, Choltitz realized that the conference had not left him reassured about the war’s future. All it had done was clarify his new posting for what it was, another scorched-earth assignment. This time, however, it was not some dour industrial or farming town on the Russian steppes — it was Paris, the most beautiful city in the world. For the first time in his life, Choltitz thought of disobeying a direct order
Sippenhaft law was legislation that in effect made hostages of the families of front-line soldiers. Prompted by the bomb plot, these draconian measures provided the death penalty for the next of kin of men who surrendered, deserted or merely performed at levels below what was dictated.
A stunned and sickened Choltitz finally mumbled that if Germany was resorting to such bestial measures, she was reverting to the Middle Ages.
Suddenly, Choltitz was seized by one of his periodic attacks of asthma and went into a fit of uncontrollable coughing. Leading him onto the balcony for some fresh air, Tattinger looked down on the lovely sculptured garden of the Tuileries and had an inspiration. Gesturing at the captivating vista, he made his point. Below them a lovely young girl was riding her bicycle on the Rue de Rivoli; on the manicured grounds of Le Notre, children played by the pond with their sailboats; across the adjacent Seine was the glittering dome of Les Invalides; and beyond that stood the landmark of the City of Light, the Eiffel Tower.
The Frenchman’s appeal was powerful: ‘Often it is given a general to destroy, rarely to preserve. Imagine that one day it may be given you to stand on this balcony again, as a tourist, to look once more on these monuments to our joys, to our sufferings, and be able to say, ‘One day I could have destroyed this, and I preserved it as a gift to humanity.’ General, is not that worth all a conqueror’s glory?’ Choltitz looked silently to his left at the Louvre and to his right at the Place de la Concorde and replied: ‘You are a good advocate for Paris, Monsieur Tattinger. You have done your duty well. Likewise I, as a German general, must do mine.’ Would he?
The thin line of Germans deployed in the semicircle to the west was all that stood between the 2nd Armored and Paris. Then even those forces were mysteriously ordered to the south. It seemed to confirm that Choltitz was not intended to preside over the defense of the capital anyway. He was to see to its destruction. For Paris to be reduced to rubble in a siege was something Choltitz could understand. That would be a military operation. But for it to be obliterated merely to appease Germany’s leader was unacceptable to him. Choltitz could no longer delude himself into believing his cause was just, nor would he continue to fight for it. If only the Americans would hurry.
Choltitz risked his life and his family by lying to the chief of staff of Army Group B, Generalleutnant Hans Speidel, telling him the destruction of the city had already begun
The Luftwaffe had received orders directly from Hitler to carry out a terror raid on the city proper, but the major in charge of the operation had to contend with an aroused Choltitz, who was determined to abort the attack (scheduled for the night of August 24-25 to avoid Allied fighter interference) not only because of its barbarity but also since it targeted a large area thick with his troops. Such an operation, Choltitz growled, ‘would kill as many Germans as Parisians.’
The bleeding 2nd French Armored knocked out the last major German strongpoint outside the city limits, opening the road to Paris. The only real problem was the commander of the very professional enemy garrison. Although he had seen to it that Hitler’s scorched-earth orders were not executed, Choltitz as yet had no intention of handing the city over to his approaching enemies without a fight, as some of his men were now suggesting. He promised his assembled officers that evening that he would ‘personally shoot, in my own office, the next man who comes to me suggesting we abandon Paris without a fight.’ Destroying the city for no good reason was one thing; running away from a fight was quite another.
In his Hotel Meurice headquarters, Choltitz, demoralized by the events of the past two weeks and despairing of receiving help, decided to surrender. Slightly after 1 p.m., soldiers of the bloodied Free French armored division marched into the office of the commander of the Paris garrison. Their leader announced himself as ‘Lieutenant Henri Karcher of the army of General de Gaulle.’ Choltitz responded, ‘General von Choltitz, commander of Gross Paris.’
‘You are my prisoner,’ Karcher informed him. ‘Ja,’ replied Choltitz.
In Germany a military tribunal convened to try Choltitz in absentia for treason. The defendant still had highly placed friends in the military, however, and they managed to delay the trial so that the war came to an end before the court-martial could come to order, thereby saving Choltitz’s wife and children from execution or imprisonment.
Ultimately, the liberation of Paris was to come at a great cost. Allied fuel reserves had been depleted, and those German forces that escaped reached the safety of the Siegfried Line. The Western Front stagnated with the approach of autumn and winter. There would be a great slaughter in the dreary Hurtgen Forest. The British would be crushed at Arnhem. There would be a Battle of the Bulge. Worst by far, innocents beyond counting would continue to die miserably in the death camps of the SS. It was a terrible price to pay for the grandest city in Europe
https://www.historynet.com/dietrich...aris-from-destruction-during-world-war-ii.htm
As he said after a later meeting with Hitler: "I cannot implement this insane order."
ONE of Choltitz's first acts was surreptitiously to organise the release of 3,000 French political prisoners being held by the Germans in the city. It immediately saved hundreds of lives, as did his order to stop a number of trains crammed with French citizens destined for the concentration camps.
Within two weeks of taking over, he had agreed with French officials to have explosives laid by German engineers removed. It meant electricity and gas installations, telephone exchanges and even museums were saved from destruction.
On occasion Choltitz managed to bluff other commanders into saving the city. When General Otto Dessloch, head of Luftwaffe 3, threatened to bomb Paris, Choltitz knew that a night attack by a few hundred planes would decimate the city, particularly if large fires swept through its narrow streets.
He said any attack had to be in daytime to avoid putting his own soldiers at risk, knowing full well that such a mission would be impossible with Allied aircraft controlling the skies. When he threatened to pull out his troops and blame the Luftwaffe, Dessloch backed down.
When a Panzer division was offered to him to quell any uprising, Choltitz similarly turned down the help while orders later to blow up 72 key bridges across the Seine were ignored despite easily accessible explosives.
Some of his actions were about more than buildings and infrastructure. When SS officers arrived saying they had come to "secure" the Bayeux Tapestry from the cellars of the Louvre, the keys were conveniently lost. As the soldiers contemplated the situation, rounds of bullets were sprayed from inside the museum. After two hours trying to summon the courage to make their move, the SS declared the tapestry was no longer there and withdrew.
But apart from one shell aimed at the doors of the Prefecture, the Prussian general showed remarkable restraint. German tanks did not roll into the city and heavy shells and mortar, which could have killed hundreds and destroyed some of the city's most famous buildings, were not used. The worst atrocities were largely at the hands of the remaining SS, whose marauding units were beyond Choltitz's control.
When a livid Hitler told Choltitz to defend the city "to the utmost" he claimed he was preparing to blow up bridges, the city was alight and there was fighting on every corner. In reality, little could have been further from the truth.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...zi-governor-Dietrich-von-Choltitz-saved-Paris
Sippenhaft law was legislation that in effect made hostages of the families of front-line soldiers. Prompted by the bomb plot, these draconian measures provided the death penalty for the next of kin of men who surrendered, deserted or merely performed at levels below what was dictated.
A stunned and sickened Choltitz finally mumbled that if Germany was resorting to such bestial measures, she was reverting to the Middle Ages.
Suddenly, Choltitz was seized by one of his periodic attacks of asthma and went into a fit of uncontrollable coughing. Leading him onto the balcony for some fresh air, Tattinger looked down on the lovely sculptured garden of the Tuileries and had an inspiration. Gesturing at the captivating vista, he made his point. Below them a lovely young girl was riding her bicycle on the Rue de Rivoli; on the manicured grounds of Le Notre, children played by the pond with their sailboats; across the adjacent Seine was the glittering dome of Les Invalides; and beyond that stood the landmark of the City of Light, the Eiffel Tower.
The Frenchman’s appeal was powerful: ‘Often it is given a general to destroy, rarely to preserve. Imagine that one day it may be given you to stand on this balcony again, as a tourist, to look once more on these monuments to our joys, to our sufferings, and be able to say, ‘One day I could have destroyed this, and I preserved it as a gift to humanity.’ General, is not that worth all a conqueror’s glory?’ Choltitz looked silently to his left at the Louvre and to his right at the Place de la Concorde and replied: ‘You are a good advocate for Paris, Monsieur Tattinger. You have done your duty well. Likewise I, as a German general, must do mine.’ Would he?
The thin line of Germans deployed in the semicircle to the west was all that stood between the 2nd Armored and Paris. Then even those forces were mysteriously ordered to the south. It seemed to confirm that Choltitz was not intended to preside over the defense of the capital anyway. He was to see to its destruction. For Paris to be reduced to rubble in a siege was something Choltitz could understand. That would be a military operation. But for it to be obliterated merely to appease Germany’s leader was unacceptable to him. Choltitz could no longer delude himself into believing his cause was just, nor would he continue to fight for it. If only the Americans would hurry.
Choltitz risked his life and his family by lying to the chief of staff of Army Group B, Generalleutnant Hans Speidel, telling him the destruction of the city had already begun
The Luftwaffe had received orders directly from Hitler to carry out a terror raid on the city proper, but the major in charge of the operation had to contend with an aroused Choltitz, who was determined to abort the attack (scheduled for the night of August 24-25 to avoid Allied fighter interference) not only because of its barbarity but also since it targeted a large area thick with his troops. Such an operation, Choltitz growled, ‘would kill as many Germans as Parisians.’
The bleeding 2nd French Armored knocked out the last major German strongpoint outside the city limits, opening the road to Paris. The only real problem was the commander of the very professional enemy garrison. Although he had seen to it that Hitler’s scorched-earth orders were not executed, Choltitz as yet had no intention of handing the city over to his approaching enemies without a fight, as some of his men were now suggesting. He promised his assembled officers that evening that he would ‘personally shoot, in my own office, the next man who comes to me suggesting we abandon Paris without a fight.’ Destroying the city for no good reason was one thing; running away from a fight was quite another.
In his Hotel Meurice headquarters, Choltitz, demoralized by the events of the past two weeks and despairing of receiving help, decided to surrender. Slightly after 1 p.m., soldiers of the bloodied Free French armored division marched into the office of the commander of the Paris garrison. Their leader announced himself as ‘Lieutenant Henri Karcher of the army of General de Gaulle.’ Choltitz responded, ‘General von Choltitz, commander of Gross Paris.’
‘You are my prisoner,’ Karcher informed him. ‘Ja,’ replied Choltitz.
In Germany a military tribunal convened to try Choltitz in absentia for treason. The defendant still had highly placed friends in the military, however, and they managed to delay the trial so that the war came to an end before the court-martial could come to order, thereby saving Choltitz’s wife and children from execution or imprisonment.
Ultimately, the liberation of Paris was to come at a great cost. Allied fuel reserves had been depleted, and those German forces that escaped reached the safety of the Siegfried Line. The Western Front stagnated with the approach of autumn and winter. There would be a great slaughter in the dreary Hurtgen Forest. The British would be crushed at Arnhem. There would be a Battle of the Bulge. Worst by far, innocents beyond counting would continue to die miserably in the death camps of the SS. It was a terrible price to pay for the grandest city in Europe
https://www.historynet.com/dietrich...aris-from-destruction-during-world-war-ii.htm
As he said after a later meeting with Hitler: "I cannot implement this insane order."
ONE of Choltitz's first acts was surreptitiously to organise the release of 3,000 French political prisoners being held by the Germans in the city. It immediately saved hundreds of lives, as did his order to stop a number of trains crammed with French citizens destined for the concentration camps.
Within two weeks of taking over, he had agreed with French officials to have explosives laid by German engineers removed. It meant electricity and gas installations, telephone exchanges and even museums were saved from destruction.
On occasion Choltitz managed to bluff other commanders into saving the city. When General Otto Dessloch, head of Luftwaffe 3, threatened to bomb Paris, Choltitz knew that a night attack by a few hundred planes would decimate the city, particularly if large fires swept through its narrow streets.
He said any attack had to be in daytime to avoid putting his own soldiers at risk, knowing full well that such a mission would be impossible with Allied aircraft controlling the skies. When he threatened to pull out his troops and blame the Luftwaffe, Dessloch backed down.
When a Panzer division was offered to him to quell any uprising, Choltitz similarly turned down the help while orders later to blow up 72 key bridges across the Seine were ignored despite easily accessible explosives.
Some of his actions were about more than buildings and infrastructure. When SS officers arrived saying they had come to "secure" the Bayeux Tapestry from the cellars of the Louvre, the keys were conveniently lost. As the soldiers contemplated the situation, rounds of bullets were sprayed from inside the museum. After two hours trying to summon the courage to make their move, the SS declared the tapestry was no longer there and withdrew.
But apart from one shell aimed at the doors of the Prefecture, the Prussian general showed remarkable restraint. German tanks did not roll into the city and heavy shells and mortar, which could have killed hundreds and destroyed some of the city's most famous buildings, were not used. The worst atrocities were largely at the hands of the remaining SS, whose marauding units were beyond Choltitz's control.
When a livid Hitler told Choltitz to defend the city "to the utmost" he claimed he was preparing to blow up bridges, the city was alight and there was fighting on every corner. In reality, little could have been further from the truth.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...zi-governor-Dietrich-von-Choltitz-saved-Paris
Edit. Muut lähteet Britannica ja Wiki
Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
Kuten sanoin, on olemassa eriäviä mielipiteitä. Mutta selvästi suurin osa on sitä mieltä että hän omalla toiminnallaan pelasti Pariisin täydeltä tuholta.
Sitäpaitsi, ei olisi voinut vaikka olisi halunnut? Mikä argumentti se on? Haluaisitko sinä porata naapurin Jarmoa hanuriin jos saisit tilaisuuden? Tekeekö sinusta homon se, että sinulla ei vain ole tilaisuutta kairata jotain peppuun?
Ja anteeksi jos kuulostaa vittuilulta, vittuiluksi tämä on tarkoitettu vain niille jotka argumentoi tuolla tavalla Toi nyt tuntui sopivalta esimerkiltä pohjalaiselle 
Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
Kyse tuskin on Karin Swendotterista joka väitti lastensa olevan Keijujen kuninkaan?
Kaarle X Kustaan Venäjän sota, jota myös kutsutaan Ruptuurisodaksi. Tämän aiheen tuntija Suomessa on emeritusprofessori Jussi T Lappalainen, jonka väikkäri vuosikymmeniä sitten käsitteli aihetta. Nevan suulla sijaitsi Nevalinnan pieni ruotsalaiskaupunki, jonka porvarit ja sotaväki pakeni ennen venäläisten tuloa. Sen edustalla oli ja on edelleen Retusaari, joka myöhemmin sai nimen Kronstadt. Wikipedian mukaan pienehkö ruotsalaisalus ajautui maihin jonkinlaisen taistelun jälkeen ja miehistöstä osa tapettiin ja osa otettiin vangiksi. Lähteenä viitataan auktoriteetti Lappalaiseen, joka kirjasta ei kuitenkaan löydy detaljeja, joita wiki kertoo. Hänen väitöskirjaansa ei kotikirjastostani löydy joten ei voi enempää tarkistaa. Ruotsalaisen amiraali Wrangelin laivasto hallitsi kuitenkin koko kesän Suomenlahden pohjukan merialuetta.
Venäläiset itse pitävät Riilahden taistelua ekana voittonaan mutta kysymys on ihan oikeutettu, sillä Lappalainen tosiaan laskee Retusaaressa tuhotun aluksen venäjän ensimmäiseksi merivoitoksi. Miehistökin oli suomalaisia, kuten kysyjä kertoi, sillä alus ei ollu sotalaiva, vaan ns. laivamiespitäjien varustama lotja eli tiedustelu- ja huoltoalus.
Venäläiset itse pitävät Riilahden taistelua ekana voittonaan mutta kysymys on ihan oikeutettu, sillä Lappalainen tosiaan laskee Retusaaressa tuhotun aluksen venäjän ensimmäiseksi merivoitoksi. Miehistökin oli suomalaisia, kuten kysyjä kertoi, sillä alus ei ollu sotalaiva, vaan ns. laivamiespitäjien varustama lotja eli tiedustelu- ja huoltoalus.
Aivan oikein. Venäläisille se oli jonkin lähteiden mukaan ensimmäinen voitto meritaistelussa jos sitä nyt meritaisteluna voi pitää. Venäläisiä johti Piotr Potemkin joten onkohan kuuluisa panssarilaiva Potemkin saanut nimensä juuri hänen mukaansa. Onnittelut oikeasta vastauksesta ja vuoro siirtyy sinulle.
Kuuluisampi Potemkin taisteli Venäjän etelärintamilla ja valtasi mm. taas ajankohtaisen Krimin. Siksi panssarilaiva P:kin purjehti Mustalla merellä eikä Suomenlahdella. Kysymyskin oli ihan OK, vaikka wikiartikkelin kirjoittajalla on epätarkkuutta lähteissä. Tapaus oli varmasti Venäjän eka merivoitto, sillä tämä oli ensimmäinen kerta kun heidän sotavoimansa pääsi minkään meren ääreen edes lyhyeksi aikaa.
Olen varmaan jo kysyny kaikki järkevät kysymykset joten luovutan vuoron nopeimmalle.
Olen varmaan jo kysyny kaikki järkevät kysymykset joten luovutan vuoron nopeimmalle.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Mitenkä USA:n entisen presidentin George H.W Bushin sotakokemukset ja kannibalismi liittyvät toisiinsa ?
Bush ammuttiin alas Japanilaisten toimesta syyskuussa 1944. Hän oli ainoa koneesta hypänneista joka pelastui. Muut miehistön jäsenet myöhemmin ilmitulleiden tietojen mukaan otettiin vangeiksi. Heitä kidutettiin jonka jälkeen heidät mestattiin ja tarinan mukaan paloiteltiin ja laitettiin ruoaksi Japanilaisille upseereille.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Kyllä. Ja tämän mukaan japanilaisia tuomittiinkin sodan jälkeen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichijima_incident
Leaderwolf
Respected Leader
Piestewa Peak? Lori Piestewan mukaan? Hopi intiaani joka kuoli Irakissa 2003, myös ensimmäinen taistelussa kaatunut nainen Irakin sodassa.