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Denmark ignored Nato demands for years: Now a new bill of billions awaits

For years, Nato's criticism of Denmark's personnel carriers bounced off - billion dollar investment must now be removed from the Defence's primary battle plan.
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www.dr.dk

Danmark ignorerede Nato-krav i årevis: Nu venter ny milliardregning

I årevis prellede Natos kritik af Danmarks mandskabsvogne af - milliardinvestering skal nu fjernes fra Forsvarets primære slagplan.
www.dr.dk www.dr.dk
If you are fighting an insurgency in Iraq or waging war against guerilla groups such as the Taliban movement, where the biggest threat is roadside bombs, then the Defence's newly purchased armored personnel carriers of the type 'Piranha V' (Piranha 5, ed.) are fine.

But that task is no longer so relevant for the Danish defence.

If, on the other hand, the purpose is to be able to defend against an equal opponent such as Russia, which has both tanks, helicopters, planes and grenades in abundance, then the story is completely different.

As the military threat from Russia has increased, NATO has repeatedly appealed to Denmark over the past almost 10 years.

Denmark had to acquire vehicles that can do more than the 309 Piranha crew cars that it decided to buy in 2015 are capable of.

Nevertheless, the Danish defense politicians continued with the purchase of the Piranha vehicles, which have cost at least five billion kroner.

The last bill was paid last year. But already now the Piranhas must be written out of the Defence's primary battle plans.

Because the politicians, as part of the new partial agreement with a year's delay, have listened to Nato.

Nato has been asking for heavier armed and better protected combat vehicles all these years instead of armored personnel carriers like the Piranhas, says Mikkel Storm Jensen, military analyst at the Defense Academy.

- It is better armored, it is more mobile, and it is much better armed. The piranhas have a machine gun, but the new infantry fighting vehicles have a 35 millimeter machine gun that can take down much tougher targets – including helicopters, he says.

The second partial agreement of the defense settlement, which landed last week, contains an investment of around DKK 10 billion in 115 new infantry fighting vehicles - everything indicates that it will be of the CV90 type from Swedish BAE Systems, of which the Norwegian Armed Forces already have some.

They are heavily armed armored tracked vehicles with room to transport troops.
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New purchases are necessary to meet NATO's strength targets

According to Mikkel Storm Jensen, you cannot meet NATO's requirements for a heavy brigade with the piranhas.

Now the politicians have been forced to buy in again, as the first priority in Danish defense policy is to deliver on NATO's demands for Denmark.

And especially the requirement to provide a brigade with up to 6,000 men, in which the politicians have just decided to invest DKK 48.2 billion.

- NATO has asked for a heavy brigade. And in a heavy brigade, you have to use infantry fighting vehicles and not armored personnel carriers. So if you want to deliver what Nato wants, you have to have these IKKs in the brigade, he says.

According to Nato's so-called capability reviews, which come every two years and assess the strength of the member states' defense based on what the alliance wants, Nato has tried to call Denmark out since 2015.

They have increasingly emphasized that piranhas do not belong in the brigade that they would like to see Denmark get on its feet.

Nevertheless, the purchases of Piranha 5 continued, which was a newer version of the Piranha 3 personnel carriers that the Norwegian Armed Forces had with them in Afghanistan and Iraq.

As recently as last year, according to the document, Denmark paid the final installment of DKK 82 million on the purchase.
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Lecturer: The politicians did not take criticism seriously enough

According to Peter Viggo Jakobsen, associate professor at the Defense Academy, this shows that the concerns and calls of our NATO allies have simply not been taken seriously enough - until now.

- No threat was seen against NATO or Danish territory. And the pressure that came from our allies, they simply don't think it was important enough for them to start changing our strategy, he says.

The plan is now for the new infantry fighting vehicles to replace the Piranha 5 personnel carriers in the 1st Brigade's infantry companies, which currently use the lighter vehicle.

This applies to combat soldiers in the regiments in both Holstebro, Høvelte north of Copenhagen and Slagelse.

This means that large parts of the 309 piranhas that have just been purchased as the Army's rolling backbone for the combat soldiers have, with the stroke of a pen, become redundant in relation to the task they were intended for - precisely as a combat vehicle for the brigade.

The vehicles were decided to be bought for five billion kroner in the 2013-2017 defense settlement, with an anticipated total bill of a total of kroner 10 billion including upgrades and service along the way.

According to Mikkel Storm Jensen, it made good sense to buy Piranha 5 at the time, even though the infantry fighting vehicles were probably also preferable then.

- For the task in Afghanistan and Iraq, the piranhas were excellent. So it made sense to buy them then. But it was a different time, as they say, he says.
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Cannot be donated to Ukraine

Now the majority of the approximately 300 relatively new piranhas are to be used by the light infantry battalion, which has its home in Haderslev.

According to DR's information, Denmark has previously tried to donate them to Ukraine. However, this has proved impossible.

The Piranhas were bought from Switzerland, which prohibits the donation of Swiss military equipment to Ukraine. Even if Denmark owns them.

This means that Denmark cannot donate the newer Piranha 5 crew cars to Ukraine either.

Therefore, they must now benefit the barracks in Haderslev.

According to Peter Viggo Jakobsen, the piranhas are not so well suited to the tasks that now await them in the Armed Forces with the light infantry battalion, which must be able to be sent out to the world's hotspots.

- It is not the most optimal vehicle if you have to fight with the Russians, or if you have to be a light reconnaissance unit that has to move quickly and preferably not be detected. The piranhas are very large and relatively heavy and therefore probably not optimal, says Peter Viggo Jakobsen.

It has not been possible for DR to get a concrete price for the 115 new infantry fighting vehicles, as the deal has not been signed with Swedish BAE yet.
Mette Frederiksen: We can all be upset about that

On Friday last week, Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen (S) visited Swedish BAE Systems, which is based near Umeå on the Swedish east coast.

Here, Mette Frederiksen test drove the CV90 infantry fighting vehicles.

- It is a very potent weapon we are dealing with here, she concluded afterwards.

While the defense settlement parties were still in the process of climbing both up and down various trees about conscription and equality, the Prime Minister was visiting to cement the donation cooperation regarding these particular vehicles to Ukraine.

But she knew that a larger order for the 1st brigade was also on the way with the second partial agreement in the defense settlement. And that pleased her. Because she also knew that the Piranha 5 will not be accepted by Nato as a combat vehicle for the 1st brigade - according to Mette Frederiksen, that required infantry combat vehicles "like the ones they have here", she explained.
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Nato has been telling us for almost 10 years that the brigade in particular needs more firepower on the vehicles. So why are we reacting only now?

- If we look back 10 years, we were still in the process of cutting down on the Danish defence. We can all be upset about that today. We have had 30 good years in Europe - with the exception of the war in Yugoslavia. That era is over, I think. We are at the beginning of a new one.

But don't we run the risk of having around 300 newer combat vehicles, which will become somewhat redundant in the Armed Forces - bought for billions?

- We are faced with such massive tasks in the Danish defence, so we will need a lot of equipment all around, said Mette Frederiksen.

The Minister of Defence: The piranhas will probably be used

The second partial agreement in the defense settlement fell into place on Tuesday evening. It meant investments in the Armed Forces for 95 billion kroner - of which 48.2 billion kroner is for building the 1st brigade, including the Swedish IKKs.

After the agreement, Defense Minister Troels Lund Poulsen (V) stated that the piranhas will not make a profit in the Armed Forces.

- Now it's not like we get them in surplus. Now we use them elsewhere in the Armed Forces, but we need to get some other vehicles to meet the build-up of the 1st Brigade. That's what we have to make a plan for now, he said.

For several years, Nato has criticized us for betting on piranha as a vehicle for the 1st Brigade. Shouldn't we have just bought them on belts to begin with?

- It must be said that there has been a very volatile development in security policy. 10-12 years ago we were cutting back on Danish defence. Then many things happened in relation to both Crimea and not least since in Ukraine, which have changed our situation in terms of security policy. That is why we have to take advantage of it, he says.

There are almost nine years left of the current defense settlement - in 2028 the 1st Brigade must be ready according to plan.
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magitsu kirjoitti:
www.dr.dk

Danmark ignorerede Nato-krav i årevis: Nu venter ny milliardregning

I årevis prellede Natos kritik af Danmarks mandskabsvogne af - milliardinvestering skal nu fjernes fra Forsvarets primære slagplan.
www.dr.dk www.dr.dk
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Eikös noista Piranhoista nyt saa ihan kelpo ryntövaunut laittamalla tornia, konetykkiä ja ehkä atgm? Ainakin tuntuvaan osaan.

Vähän samaa vikaa noissa Tanskan Piranhoissa kuin meidän AMV:ssä, kallis ja raskas itko-lavetti. Tanskalla kuitenkin hyvä määrä noita ja upouusia, ei niiden ”stenaamisessa” kyllä mitään järkeä ole.
 
Ja edelliseen vielä, tuon Mikkelsonin hehkutus CV90:stä on varmaan ihan perusteltua sinänsä, mutta samalla liki 400 uuden Piranhan leimaaminen ”käyttökelvottomiksi” tuoksahtaa lähinnä CV lobbarin puheelta.
 
Huvittaa että tällaisen Euroopan pienimpiin kuuluvan maan armeija kilpailee koossa huomattavasti suurempien maiden kanssa.
 
Tierna kirjoitti:
Vesa Kanniainen:

”Saksan puolustusministeri: Saksan täytyy olla valmis sotaan vuoteen 2029 mennessä. Minä: Venäjä ylittää ensimmäisen kerran Nato-maan rajan 26.7.2024 alkavien Pariisin olympialaisten aikana. Tämä tapahtuu Nato-maa Norjan alueella Huippuvuorilla.”


www.twitter.com/KanniainenVesa/status/1800538634002874710
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IS generoinut artikkelin https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000010493980.html

Nato-maan rajan ylittämisessä ei Mikkolan mukaan olisi Venäjän kannalta minkäänlaista strategista järkeä. Se vain lisäisi lännen päättäväisyyttä. Riskinotto olisi jopa Venäjän standardeilla hasardia.
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Eri mieltä. Helppo paikka testata NATO päättäväisyyttä. Perääntyminen on helposti selitettävissä ja mainehaitta ryssälle "mitätön". Varsinkin suhteessa strategiseen voittoon jos saisikin jäädä sinne...

En tosin usko että vielä 2024.
 
Jos tuonne aikovat joukkoja lähettää, niin mitenköhän ne huollettaisiin? Saarto ei varmaankaan olisi paha rasti Natolle. Onhan siellä tosin tarjolla pari tuhatta panttivankia ihmiskilviksi.
 
Tierna kirjoitti:
Vesa Kanniainen:

”Saksan puolustusministeri: Saksan täytyy olla valmis sotaan vuoteen 2029 mennessä. Minä: Venäjä ylittää ensimmäisen kerran Nato-maan rajan 26.7.2024 alkavien Pariisin olympialaisten aikana. Tämä tapahtuu Nato-maa Norjan alueella Huippuvuorilla.”


www.twitter.com/KanniainenVesa/status/1800538634002874710
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Se on aivan täydellinen kohde naton testaamiseen. Kyllähän se Venäjän todellinen kurmoottaminen vaatii todennäköisesti sen, että Suomessa ja Puolassa ollaan tarpeeksi vittuuntuneita Venäjän perseilyyn. Huippuvuoret on alueena todella vieras kummankin maan kansalaisille ja mä en ikävä kyllä oikein näe, että kummankaan maan kansalaiset ovat motivoituneita mihinkään Moskovaan vyörymiseen jääkarhujen takia. Siinähän sitten onkin melkoinen soppa, kun siellä saarella häärii Venäjän vihreät miehet ja "Pohjolan Sparta" ja Puola ei lähdekään kurittamaan ryssiä 5.artiklan johdosta.

Testaako Venäjä NATOA suututtamalla ne sotilaallisesti vahvat naapurimaat suorittamalla operaation heitä vastaan tai heidän lähialueilla, vai iskeekö se mielummin johonkin mitä näiden kummankaan maan kansalaiset eivät koe tutuksi?
 
GaryG kirjoitti:
IS generoinut artikkelin https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000010493980.html



Eri mieltä. Helppo paikka testata NATO päättäväisyyttä. Perääntyminen on helposti selitettävissä ja mainehaitta ryssälle "mitätön". Varsinkin suhteessa strategiseen voittoon jos saisikin jäädä sinne...

En tosin usko että vielä 2024.
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Ei ne tuolla voi testata mitään. Jos alkavat potkimaan sopimusrajojen yli niin Norja häätää ne sieltä kokonaan. Ne vanhat sopimukset nollautuu silloin. Paluuta ei ryssällä sinne sitten olisi enää.
 
Huah kirjoitti:
Se on aivan täydellinen kohde naton testaamiseen. Kyllähän se Venäjän todellinen kurmoottaminen vaatii todennäköisesti sen, että Suomessa ja Puolassa ollaan tarpeeksi vittuuntuneita Venäjän perseilyyn. Huippuvuoret on alueena todella vieras kummankin maan kansalaisille ja mä en ikävä kyllä oikein näe, että kummankaan maan kansalaiset ovat motivoituneita mihinkään Moskovaan vyörymiseen jääkarhujen takia. Siinähän sitten onkin melkoinen soppa, kun siellä saarella häärii Venäjän vihreät miehet ja "Pohjolan Sparta" ja Puola ei lähdekään kurittamaan ryssiä 5.artiklan johdosta.

Testaako Venäjä NATOA suututtamalla ne sotilaallisesti vahvat naapurimaat suorittamalla operaation heitä vastaan tai heidän lähialueilla, vai iskeekö se mielummin johonkin mitä näiden kummankaan maan kansalaiset eivät koe tutuksi?
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Jaa. Kyllä meidän perheessä ja kaveripiirissä lähdettäisiin innolla puolustamaan Norjan oikeuksia. Norja on suomen ystävä.
 
Sinun täytyy kirjautua vastataksesi.
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