tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Leopardien jälkeen Scholtz veti uuden punaisen linjan hävittäjien kohdalle. Jos / kun F-16 -kalustoa ollaan suunnittelemassa Ukrainalle, niin mitä helvettiä se Saksalle kuuluu jos muut haluavat niitä antaa ?
Ukrainan konflikti/sota
Antares
Respected Leader
Tässäpä mielenkiintoinen kuva T-72B3 obr 2016 vaunun sisältä, twiitin tekstin käännös:
Important detail, T-72B3 Model 2016, on the side a table with distance adjustments for APFSDS, 3BM15, 3BM22, P31 (practice), 3BM26, 3BM32, 3BM42 and 3BM48 rounds. There are no numbers stamped on the 3BM48, which probably means that this ammunition is not widely available. And what to say about the 3BM59/60.
Kuva isompana:
3BM42 "Mango" tuli tuotantoon 1986. Venäjä on kehittänyt sen jälkeen useita modernimpia nuoliammuksia (ainakin paperilla) joten miksei näille ole numeroarvoja tässä kilvessä? 3BM48 sentään lukee kilvessä, mutta missä ovat 3BM59/60?
Tämä on toki yksi yksityiskohta mutta lainaan palasen venäläisen T-80BVM miehen haastattelusta, tämä on julkaistu alunperin 15.6.2022 eli yli puoli vuotta sitten (alleviivaus minun): LÄHDE
Author :
- Nuances in use? Ammunition? Did you take BC for the task only in mechanized laying? Typical composition of BC (proportion: OFS, KS, "crowbars")? Or was it filled differently for a specific task? What type of ammunition was used most often? Is the main "scrap" still 3B42?
ATGM - a suitcase without a handle or a really useful thing? Is it realistic to implement the "long arm" of our tanks in the conditions of combat in the current theater of operations? Did you have to apply? If so, what are the nuances, reliability, were there any failures in guidance and what is their reason? From personal experience: what kind of ammunition needs to be finalized or created?
tankman:
- There have never been more than 10 shells in the armor. Even from the experience of fighting around the Donetsk airport, I know what happens to a combat vehicle when it is filled to capacity with ammunition. When a shell from an RPG arrives from the floor into the commander's hatch, and the tower flies to the 3rd floor of the terminal. Our counterparts decided to ignore this simple truth and were always packed to capacity, for which they were nicknamed among the unit "a herd of lemmings."
In addition to the "Mango" at the beginning of the operation there was nothing, the ammunition was spent so quickly that it was not possible to replenish it. As for the “long arm”, I will answer as concisely as I can.
It's possible, but slow. It is extremely inconvenient to make a calculation in order to hit a closed standing target (God forbid, and a moving one), and it forces you to invent a bicycle on the spot, based on the terrain.
Concrete-piercing types of weapons are urgently needed, taking into account NATO manuals for the construction of fortifications.
-
Tämän mukaan ainakin sodan alussa 3BM42 "Mango" nuolet kävivät vähiin, suuren kulutuksen takia oli mahdoton korvata niitä. Mikä lie tilanne nyt? Spekuloin aikaisemmin, ehdittiinkö näitäkään valmistaa suuren suurta määrää Neuvostoliiton aikana? "Tuli tuotantoon vuonna 1986" ei tarkoita että massatuotanto alkoi välttämättä vielä silloin ja jos tarkastelee esim. panssarivaunujen valmistusmääriä niin tuotantomäärät kääntyivät laskuun vuonna 1990.
-
Tämä ei liity suoraan nuoliammuksiin, mutta tuli vastaan kun hain vanhempaa viestiä. Tämä on ukrainalaisen panssariupseerin haastattelusta (vanha haastattelu, julkaistu 10.7.2022). Hän sanoo mm. näin: LÄHDE
14) There are 3 tank repair plants left in Russia, and their ability to repair tanks or pull tanks out of storage is limited (not more than 100-200 units per month)
Jaroslaw Wolski sanoi että viisi. Minun aikaisemman selvityksen perusteella vuonna 2014 näitä oli ainakin kahdeksan JA vuonna 2022 julkisuuteen kerrottiin kahden avaamisesta. Minun puutteellisen selvityksen päätteeksi tuumailin että näitä voisi siis olla 8 + 2 = 10 minkä kirjoitin aikaisemmin.
Tuosta minun tuumailusta jäi puuttumaan aikavälin 2014-2021 tarkastelu, minkä takia moni asia on ehtinyt muuttumaan. Toisaalta minun selvityksessä tarkasteltiin "armored repair plant" pajoja. On mahdollista että näitä olisi tosiaan tuo kymmenen, mutta erikoistumisen takia näistä ainoastaan kolme (ja ehkä nyt viisi?) tekisi panssarivaunujen remontointia.
Jos joku haluaa lukea twitter-ketjuun poimitut haastattelun pääkohdat niin tässä ne (kuten sanottua, vanha haastattelu - julkaistu 10.7.2022):
Important detail, T-72B3 Model 2016, on the side a table with distance adjustments for APFSDS, 3BM15, 3BM22, P31 (practice), 3BM26, 3BM32, 3BM42 and 3BM48 rounds. There are no numbers stamped on the 3BM48, which probably means that this ammunition is not widely available. And what to say about the 3BM59/60.
Kuva isompana:
3BM42 "Mango" tuli tuotantoon 1986. Venäjä on kehittänyt sen jälkeen useita modernimpia nuoliammuksia (ainakin paperilla) joten miksei näille ole numeroarvoja tässä kilvessä? 3BM48 sentään lukee kilvessä, mutta missä ovat 3BM59/60?
Tämä on toki yksi yksityiskohta mutta lainaan palasen venäläisen T-80BVM miehen haastattelusta, tämä on julkaistu alunperin 15.6.2022 eli yli puoli vuotta sitten (alleviivaus minun): LÄHDE
Author :
- Nuances in use? Ammunition? Did you take BC for the task only in mechanized laying? Typical composition of BC (proportion: OFS, KS, "crowbars")? Or was it filled differently for a specific task? What type of ammunition was used most often? Is the main "scrap" still 3B42?
ATGM - a suitcase without a handle or a really useful thing? Is it realistic to implement the "long arm" of our tanks in the conditions of combat in the current theater of operations? Did you have to apply? If so, what are the nuances, reliability, were there any failures in guidance and what is their reason? From personal experience: what kind of ammunition needs to be finalized or created?
tankman:
- There have never been more than 10 shells in the armor. Even from the experience of fighting around the Donetsk airport, I know what happens to a combat vehicle when it is filled to capacity with ammunition. When a shell from an RPG arrives from the floor into the commander's hatch, and the tower flies to the 3rd floor of the terminal. Our counterparts decided to ignore this simple truth and were always packed to capacity, for which they were nicknamed among the unit "a herd of lemmings."
In addition to the "Mango" at the beginning of the operation there was nothing, the ammunition was spent so quickly that it was not possible to replenish it. As for the “long arm”, I will answer as concisely as I can.
It's possible, but slow. It is extremely inconvenient to make a calculation in order to hit a closed standing target (God forbid, and a moving one), and it forces you to invent a bicycle on the spot, based on the terrain.
Concrete-piercing types of weapons are urgently needed, taking into account NATO manuals for the construction of fortifications.
-
Tämän mukaan ainakin sodan alussa 3BM42 "Mango" nuolet kävivät vähiin, suuren kulutuksen takia oli mahdoton korvata niitä. Mikä lie tilanne nyt? Spekuloin aikaisemmin, ehdittiinkö näitäkään valmistaa suuren suurta määrää Neuvostoliiton aikana? "Tuli tuotantoon vuonna 1986" ei tarkoita että massatuotanto alkoi välttämättä vielä silloin ja jos tarkastelee esim. panssarivaunujen valmistusmääriä niin tuotantomäärät kääntyivät laskuun vuonna 1990.
-
Tämä ei liity suoraan nuoliammuksiin, mutta tuli vastaan kun hain vanhempaa viestiä. Tämä on ukrainalaisen panssariupseerin haastattelusta (vanha haastattelu, julkaistu 10.7.2022). Hän sanoo mm. näin: LÄHDE
14) There are 3 tank repair plants left in Russia, and their ability to repair tanks or pull tanks out of storage is limited (not more than 100-200 units per month)
Jaroslaw Wolski sanoi että viisi. Minun aikaisemman selvityksen perusteella vuonna 2014 näitä oli ainakin kahdeksan JA vuonna 2022 julkisuuteen kerrottiin kahden avaamisesta. Minun puutteellisen selvityksen päätteeksi tuumailin että näitä voisi siis olla 8 + 2 = 10 minkä kirjoitin aikaisemmin.
Tuosta minun tuumailusta jäi puuttumaan aikavälin 2014-2021 tarkastelu, minkä takia moni asia on ehtinyt muuttumaan. Toisaalta minun selvityksessä tarkasteltiin "armored repair plant" pajoja. On mahdollista että näitä olisi tosiaan tuo kymmenen, mutta erikoistumisen takia näistä ainoastaan kolme (ja ehkä nyt viisi?) tekisi panssarivaunujen remontointia.
Jos joku haluaa lukea twitter-ketjuun poimitut haastattelun pääkohdat niin tässä ne (kuten sanottua, vanha haastattelu - julkaistu 10.7.2022):
I'm going to do a translation of the main points of an interview done about tanks by a Ukrainian military officer. link to the interview (in Ukrainian) :
LINKKI YOUTUBE-VIDEOON
1) AFU tank formations are equipped at around 80%
2) Tanks have not become useless, on the contrary, their role in the battle has become more significant, and the variety of the tasks that they perform has widened.
3) Tanks in the AFU are not used like in 2014-2015, when they acted in groups of 1-2 tanks, up to company level (10 tanks). Now the infantry understands how to better employ synergy with tanks in battle (combined arms warfare).
4) Captured tanks have shown themselves pretty well, Ukrainian troops have managed to master them and make use of them. In some mechanized brigades there are several companies made up of captured tanks. Many infantrymen have remembered their training on the Desna grounds and happily jumped into the tanks.
5) The enemy uses tanks not in platoons, but in company level and larger, if there is more than a company left in a tank battalion. He uses them according to soviet textbooks, where there are 10 tanks per 500 meters,except there are not enough tanks for a 2nd wave, as presumed in the textbooks.
6) Both sides bring back tanks 200-300km behind the lines for repair, the transporting takes 5-6 hours. No one wants to risk the specialists capable of carrying out the repairs, or the specialized machinery needed for in-the-field repairs.
7) There are some problems with re-training tankers from T-64s to T-80s or T-72s or vice versa. This could be optimized
8) HE shells are surprisingly effective at suppressing and neutralizing the enemy, 1-3 hits are enough and the hatches open, the tank is abandoned, either that or the crew is shell shocked and stays in the tank forever.
Just as a side note from myself concerning this last point, a similar thing was observed with American Sherman tankers in ww2, where they would shoot HE at German tanks which would cause the crew to bail.
9) The majority of the losses experienced by the enemy occurred because of poor training or foolish logistical managing. Many tanks were captured in mint condition in the middle of roads without fuel.
10) @oryxspioenkop's list contains 60-70% of our equipment and 50-60% of the enemy's.
11) Captured equipment is not always officially registered, but there is a financial reward for any soldier who captures it same as for any destroyed equipment.
12) The enemy constantly uses controlled weaponry (barrel launched atgms such as invar) of T-72B3 and T-80BVM from distances of 4.5-5.5km in ambushes. Thanks to modernization, the enemy technological superiority, especially in the aforementioned barrel launched atgms.
13) 90% of T-80BVMs have been destroyed, there are still T-72B3s and T-72B3Ms, up to 900 tanks of these types have been lost, 800 remain, but there are problems with training crews for these. This is why T-62s and old models of T-72s and T-80s have been brought out of service there are elderly volunteers who served on them.
14) There are 3 tank repair plants left in Russia, and their ability to repair tanks or pull tanks out of storage is limited (not more than 100-200 units per month)
15) We truly do have 10 atgms for every enemy tank, but they are also used against URALs, BTRs, BMPs, and other cars. The effectiveness / hit rate of our soldiers is very high, especially with the Javelin, our hit rate with it is higher than the USMCs. The FGM-148 Javelin has shown itself to be better than the NLAW, which have problems with the quality of the tracking components, especially during the winter. It is also better than the Stugna-P, which has problems with components and the rocket fuel, and not always hits at 3750 m which the Javelin reliably does.
16) He who gets out of their first battle alive is already a hardened fighter, 2-3 battles he teaches all the others, after 4-5 battles, a unit is "unbeatable"
17) Foreign volunteers ask for Western weapons that they are used to.
18) On the modern tanks of the enemy there are huge pieces of glass on sights and observation view ports, which can easily be destroyed by firearms of caliber 5.45 to 12.7 from distances up to 800 m. Tankers aim for the view port of the enemy driver. On the side of the tank there is a strip 30 mm thick and 30 cm high from the bottom of the tank, where the magazine is located.
19) The most well protected tank of the enemy is the T-80BVM, after that T-90A and modifications of the T-72B.
20) The transporting of our tanks into Europe is a significant help, a single factory is able to repair 20-30 written off tanks per month. They have a large supply of specialists. In total we get back 2-3 tank companies every month.
Context needed for the next one. A few months ago Ukrainian TV ran a story about a tank repair plant in Kiev and showed it on camera. Shortly after, the plant was struck by Kalibr missiles and destroyed.
21) This cost us many excellent specialists and those responsible should be prosecuted.
22) T-64 tanks will need to be replaced after the war, there wont be many left and they will be concentrated in tank brigades. All new units are being created on "imported" T-72s.
23) NATO countries do not need a lot of tanks, by the time they get to the battlefield Russia will not have any tanks left.
24) New night vision thermal sights on captured and European tanks need new knowledge from commanders and gunners, who need to be trained to make full use of this tech. We currently do not have many of these specialists.
25) There are circumstances where our T-64s are better than captured T-80BVMs or T-72Bs, and also vice versa.
26) The installation of KONTAKT-1 or NOZH explosive reactive armor on "naked" T-72Ms takes 2-3 welders one working day to complete.
27) We do not need Leopards right now. Send us more T-72s instead. 1-2 battalions of leopards would do more harm than good
28) Re-training of tankers onto western tanks would take around a month, repair crews would need at least 3-4 months.
29) There are still 100 T-72s that can be "imported". Africa and Asia should not be considered.
LINKKI YOUTUBE-VIDEOON
1) AFU tank formations are equipped at around 80%
2) Tanks have not become useless, on the contrary, their role in the battle has become more significant, and the variety of the tasks that they perform has widened.
3) Tanks in the AFU are not used like in 2014-2015, when they acted in groups of 1-2 tanks, up to company level (10 tanks). Now the infantry understands how to better employ synergy with tanks in battle (combined arms warfare).
4) Captured tanks have shown themselves pretty well, Ukrainian troops have managed to master them and make use of them. In some mechanized brigades there are several companies made up of captured tanks. Many infantrymen have remembered their training on the Desna grounds and happily jumped into the tanks.
5) The enemy uses tanks not in platoons, but in company level and larger, if there is more than a company left in a tank battalion. He uses them according to soviet textbooks, where there are 10 tanks per 500 meters,except there are not enough tanks for a 2nd wave, as presumed in the textbooks.
6) Both sides bring back tanks 200-300km behind the lines for repair, the transporting takes 5-6 hours. No one wants to risk the specialists capable of carrying out the repairs, or the specialized machinery needed for in-the-field repairs.
7) There are some problems with re-training tankers from T-64s to T-80s or T-72s or vice versa. This could be optimized
8) HE shells are surprisingly effective at suppressing and neutralizing the enemy, 1-3 hits are enough and the hatches open, the tank is abandoned, either that or the crew is shell shocked and stays in the tank forever.
Just as a side note from myself concerning this last point, a similar thing was observed with American Sherman tankers in ww2, where they would shoot HE at German tanks which would cause the crew to bail.
9) The majority of the losses experienced by the enemy occurred because of poor training or foolish logistical managing. Many tanks were captured in mint condition in the middle of roads without fuel.
10) @oryxspioenkop's list contains 60-70% of our equipment and 50-60% of the enemy's.
11) Captured equipment is not always officially registered, but there is a financial reward for any soldier who captures it same as for any destroyed equipment.
12) The enemy constantly uses controlled weaponry (barrel launched atgms such as invar) of T-72B3 and T-80BVM from distances of 4.5-5.5km in ambushes. Thanks to modernization, the enemy technological superiority, especially in the aforementioned barrel launched atgms.
13) 90% of T-80BVMs have been destroyed, there are still T-72B3s and T-72B3Ms, up to 900 tanks of these types have been lost, 800 remain, but there are problems with training crews for these. This is why T-62s and old models of T-72s and T-80s have been brought out of service there are elderly volunteers who served on them.
14) There are 3 tank repair plants left in Russia, and their ability to repair tanks or pull tanks out of storage is limited (not more than 100-200 units per month)
15) We truly do have 10 atgms for every enemy tank, but they are also used against URALs, BTRs, BMPs, and other cars. The effectiveness / hit rate of our soldiers is very high, especially with the Javelin, our hit rate with it is higher than the USMCs. The FGM-148 Javelin has shown itself to be better than the NLAW, which have problems with the quality of the tracking components, especially during the winter. It is also better than the Stugna-P, which has problems with components and the rocket fuel, and not always hits at 3750 m which the Javelin reliably does.
16) He who gets out of their first battle alive is already a hardened fighter, 2-3 battles he teaches all the others, after 4-5 battles, a unit is "unbeatable"
17) Foreign volunteers ask for Western weapons that they are used to.
18) On the modern tanks of the enemy there are huge pieces of glass on sights and observation view ports, which can easily be destroyed by firearms of caliber 5.45 to 12.7 from distances up to 800 m. Tankers aim for the view port of the enemy driver. On the side of the tank there is a strip 30 mm thick and 30 cm high from the bottom of the tank, where the magazine is located.
19) The most well protected tank of the enemy is the T-80BVM, after that T-90A and modifications of the T-72B.
20) The transporting of our tanks into Europe is a significant help, a single factory is able to repair 20-30 written off tanks per month. They have a large supply of specialists. In total we get back 2-3 tank companies every month.
Context needed for the next one. A few months ago Ukrainian TV ran a story about a tank repair plant in Kiev and showed it on camera. Shortly after, the plant was struck by Kalibr missiles and destroyed.
21) This cost us many excellent specialists and those responsible should be prosecuted.
22) T-64 tanks will need to be replaced after the war, there wont be many left and they will be concentrated in tank brigades. All new units are being created on "imported" T-72s.
23) NATO countries do not need a lot of tanks, by the time they get to the battlefield Russia will not have any tanks left.
24) New night vision thermal sights on captured and European tanks need new knowledge from commanders and gunners, who need to be trained to make full use of this tech. We currently do not have many of these specialists.
25) There are circumstances where our T-64s are better than captured T-80BVMs or T-72Bs, and also vice versa.
26) The installation of KONTAKT-1 or NOZH explosive reactive armor on "naked" T-72Ms takes 2-3 welders one working day to complete.
27) We do not need Leopards right now. Send us more T-72s instead. 1-2 battalions of leopards would do more harm than good
28) Re-training of tankers onto western tanks would take around a month, repair crews would need at least 3-4 months.
29) There are still 100 T-72s that can be "imported". Africa and Asia should not be considered.
missileman
Kenraali
Parin päivän takaa ja ehkä ollut jaossakin, mutta itseltä mennyt ohi..
FinnNSF
Ylipäällikkö
Ei jaksanu katsoa loppuun, toi haastateltava muija kuulosti joltain ammattiankeuttajalta ja sössötti omituisia. Abrams tarvitsee lentopetroolia? Joo, se on varmaan paras polttoaine mutta kyllä siinä löpö ja bensakin toimii.
aj77
Greatest Leader
Kuorma-autoillako ne sitä sähköä aikoo varastaa?
Kuvan autojen lavalle voi lapioida todella paljon watteja.
Tässä suomalainen vastike.
Asevelvollisuus | Keihäsmies Janne Läspä tympääntyi varusmiespalveluksen olosuhteisiin – heittää radikaalin ehdotuksen
Urheilukoulussa varusmiespalvelustaan suorittava Janne Läspä kertoo ajastaan koruttomaan sävyyn. Hänellä on myös raju ehdotus varusmiespalveluksen parantamiseksi.
www.hs.fi
saftamil
Kenraali
Onneksi näiden suhteen sakuilla ei ole mitään veto-oikeutta. Jos eivät halua antaa koneita, niin ihan sama. F-16 kalustoa löytyy ihan hitosti muualta.
Oma haaveeni on nähdä vielä pahkat näiden päälle toiminnassa. Ensin haukat raivaamassa ilmatilan tyhjäksi ja sitten pahkat kunnolla kurmoottamaan rysyjä siihen päälle.
Kun tämä tapahtuu lupaan että myös mulla rupeaa kalsongeissa jöpöttämään
No sielläpä ei sotilaan moraalilla ja viihtyvyydelä ole mitään väliä.
Olisiko mitään akuuttia keinoa lännen tukea Ukrainaa tällä hetkellä Donetskissa? Millä keinoin ne zombie massat saataisiin lakoon ja tilanne stabilisoitua?
Korpijääkäri
Kapteeni
Hengen nostatus video elokuulta
Slava Ukraini
Slava Ukraini
Ymmärrän tunteen, Janne olis keihään kanssa varmasti hyödyllisempi sodassa ku rynkyn.Tässä suomalainen vastike.
Asevelvollisuus | Keihäsmies Janne Läspä tympääntyi varusmiespalveluksen olosuhteisiin – heittää radikaalin ehdotuksen
Urheilukoulussa varusmiespalvelustaan suorittava Janne Läspä kertoo ajastaan koruttomaan sävyyn. Hänellä on myös raju ehdotus varusmiespalveluksen parantamiseksi.
Mutta onhan se niinkin että kyllä me ollaan jossain mielessä etuoikeutettu kansakunta jonka ei kannata murehtia mistään, vaikkapa sodanuhasta. On aikaa olla vaikkapa itsekäs.
Mikä alue?
Edit: keskellä Ukrainaa. Murmanskin karhut varmaan oli asialla.
Edit: keskellä Ukrainaa. Murmanskin karhut varmaan oli asialla.
saftamil
Kenraali
Itselle tulee ekaksi mieleen HIMARS ja volfram kuulat ensi hätään. Varmaan aika pian olisi myös rypäleitä mahdollista saada lisäksi… ?
proileri
Kenraali
Ei varmaan kauheana sanomista F-16 osalta. Typhoonien ja Tornadojen osalta voi olla, niissä on Saksa osana valmistajakonsernia.
Jenkkien senaatti näyttäis yli puoluerajojen olevan sitä mieltä että riittää... Jota itekki olen oottanu, että milloin on aika lopettaa tuo selkkaus. Kyse ku kai on siitä että tällä hetkellä rysyjä kulutetaan tosi halvalla. Ja ku kuluneisuus alkaa olla riittävä, vois vaikka kumauttaa nuijalla niinkö matikkaa heikolla jäällä. Itteä jännättää että meneekö tuonne itärintamalle A10 vai F16. Lähtisin A-kympeillä, koska sen pelotevaikutus on merkittävä. Ja tukee panssareita.
Paljon aiemmin oli keskustelua jossain että miksei rypäleitä tai fosforia, molemmat sallittuja. Fosfori varmaankin generois bakteerisodankäynnin mutta rypäle minusta on pikkunättiä josta ei voi närkästyä.
voimat loppuu kesken
