Sukellusveneet

Canada needs to chart a clear course for increased defence spending​

The navy is sending a group this month to Korea and Japan on a scouting mission.
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Submarines are an instructive example. They are a key area of immediate need, as this space advocated in early April. Such an investment would fill a soon-to-emerge hole in Canada’s capabilities, and ideally bolster them. It would also help, in part, fulfill the 2-per-cent promise to allies.

When is the most pressing question, according to Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee, commander of the navy. His main message on subs is to act quickly.

Canada has four aging Victoria-class subs bought used from the U.K. in the late 1990s. Typically, a country needs four subs to ensure one is ready to go to sea at any time. This isn’t really Canada’s current status; one sub hasn’t been at sea for years and in some recent years no sub has been deployed at all.

The first of the old subs has to be decommissioned starting in 2034 – barely a decade away. Given the length of time it will take for new subs to arrive, deciding must be done as soon as possible. Even an immediate decision could still likely mean a new sub would not arrive for more than 15 years.

Two years ago, the navy started looking at new subs. In April, the Ottawa Citizen reported the navy was interested in as many as 12 subs for a price of at least $60-billion.


In a meeting with The Globe’s editorial board this week, Vice-Adm. Topshee emphasized the decision is to be made by the federal government but mapped out a clear path that could be taken.

Given time constraints, and Canada’s needs, the purchase of subs from a country such as South Korea would make sense, said Vice-Adm. Topshee. Korea’s diesel-electric KSS-III likely meets Canada’s requirements, most crucially being able to stay at sea for several months and cover thousands of nautical miles, including to and from the Canadian Arctic.

The navy is sending a group this month to Korea and Japan on a scouting mission.

Vice-Adm. Topshee doesn’t think it’s realistic for Canada to build subs itself. “The lesson of all of our allies tells us it would be very, very difficult,” he said. Instead, he believes Canada could partner with a vendor nation to establish one or two domestic facilities to perform maintenance on the boats.

Making a decision to buy is the easy part. Building up true submarine capacity in the navy is another. Canada barely has the submariners for its existing fleet. To consider buying eight subs, or even 12 – that is, to have two or three available to work at all times – involves a lot more than the initial purchase price.

The clear message – whether it’s pushing toward to the 2 per cent target or having a concrete plan for new subs – is that decisions need to be made now, and stuck with over the long haul.

Canada learned hard lessons in the decades-long F-35 fighter jet saga. Don’t make the same mistakes on submarines. Canada needs to move fast, and decisively.
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Globe editorial: Canada needs to chart a clear course for increased d…

archived 4 May 2023 19:21:27 UTC
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Eli Kanadan sukellusveneiden korvaamista kiirehditään laivaston puolelta. Opintomatka Etelä-Koreaan ja Japaniin jo tässä kuussa.
 
Muurin taa kohta sukeltava artikkeli Kandan haluista ostaa konventionaalisia sukellusveneitä.
Canada set to launch replica of 2015 Australian competition to build 12 conventional submarines
May 13, 2023

Contrary to the vast majority of the European member countries of NATO, Canada, a founding member of the Alliance, has not, for the time being, presented a firm budgetary trajectory to achieve a defense effort of 2% of its GDP. However, and despite a starving defense effort of only 1.35% of GDP and a budget of $23 billion (us) in 2023, the country has undertaken, in recent years, several major programs to modernize its armies, including the acquisition of 88 F-35A combat aircraft to replace the 76 CF-18s still in service, but also 15 British F-26 heavy frigatesto replace the 12 Halifax-class frigates that entered service between 1988 and 1995. More recently, Ottawa announced its intention to replace its fleet of 15 maritime patrol CP-140M Auroras derived from the Lockheed P-3 Orion, with the new Boeing American P-8A Poseidon . But in the naval field, the greatest revolution to come for the Royal Canadian Navy will take place in the submarine field.


Indeed, the RCN implements, today, 4 diesel-electric submarines of the Victoria class , developed by Great Britain to support its new SNA of the Conqueror class and replace the Oberon in the middle of the 80s. Of the 12 submarines planned for the Royal Navy, only 4 buildings of what was then designated as the Upholder class were built, the Royal Navy having decided in the meantime, like the French Navy or the US Navy, to turn exclusively to nuclear-powered submersibles. Entered into service between 1990 and 1990, the 4 ships were finally sold in 1998 to the Royal Canadian Navy to replace the Canadian Oberons which had reached their retirement age.

Throughout the post-Cold War period, the very small format of the Canadian submarine fleet was hardly a handicap, especially since Ottawa, like its European counterparts, took head on the potential offered by the famous " benefits of peace”, as presented after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the West. But as tensions rise in the Atlantic and Arctic against Russia, and in the Pacific against China, Canadian authorities have had to revise the format of the fleet upwards, and more particularly of the submarine fleet. Marine.


And in fact, according to the Canadian press, the country's authorities are now in consultation to undertake a new program to replace the 4 Victorias with no less than 12 new conventionally powered attack submarines. To do so, Ottawa is presenting an envelope of 60 billion Canadian dollars, or 40 billion euros. For several commentators, however, the NCR 'would have significant room for improvement in this programme, a budget of $100 billion, or €60 billion, being often put forward in this regard. This budget, but also the number of ships targeted, is certainly reminiscent of the previous competition in Australia won by the French Naval Group in 2015, before being unilaterally abandoned by Canberra in 2021 to turn to cooperation with the United States and Great Britain as part of the newly formed AUKUS alliance, to produce 8 attack submarines, this time with nuclear propulsion. But if in appearance, the Canadian competition recalls the Australian, in fact, it will be very different.


Indeed, in the early 2010s, when the Australian competition took place, only 3 ships could claim the status of conventional ocean-going submarines: the German Type 214, the Japanese Soryu and the French Shortfin Barracuda. For a long time, the Japanese model had been presented as the great favorite in Australia, before to everyone's surprise, Canberra decided to turn to the Shortfin Barracuda, a ship designed on the achievements of the nuclear-powered submarine programs of attack and rocket launchers of the French Navy, in particular around the new class of SNA Suffren of the French Navy. In fact, at that date, Naval group had many advantages over its competitors, certainly not very visible to the general public, but very effective against Australian naval experts,


The situation today, however, is radically different, and Canadian competition will undoubtedly be much tougher for Naval Group than it was in Australia 8 years ago. Indeed, if the French manufacturer can show the new SNA Suffren and soon the Dugay-Trouin to justify the nautical and acoustic performance of its model, the competition will often have vessels actually operational and in service, and this in a configuration very close to that which could be offered in Canada, including in terms of propulsion. Other offers, meanwhile, are very advanced so that the design costs will be significantly reduced.

This is particularly the case of the new Type 212CD from TKMS, chosen by the Norwegian and German Navies, the first ship of which is due to be delivered in 2029, and whose design is already fully assumed by these two countries. This will also be the case of the new Spanish S-80 Plus of the Isaac Peral class which, like the Shortfin Barracuda, is an ocean-going conventional submarine with a displacement of almost 3,500 tons whose first unit has just made its first static dive. . In Asia, the South Korean Dosan Ahn Changho, but also the new Japanese Taïgei using Lithium-ion batteries are also in service and offer advanced and demonstrable performance, with design and adaptation costs probably very low. .

However, Naval Group and its Shortfin Barracuda will not be deprived in this competition. On the one hand, the advantages of the French Marlin ocean-going submarine model remain today, in particular with regard to unequaled dynamic acoustic discretion thanks to the Pump-jet technology but also to the new generation anechoic tiles developed by French industry. In addition, if the submarine does not sail, a significant part of its study has already been carried out, and paid for, by Canberra, which will reduce the final cost accordingly. Finally, Naval Group could find in Washington an unexpected ally in this competition, knowing that Ottawa has shown no particular ambition to equip itself with nuclear-powered submarines, and thatpart of the US political class is rather inclined to give certain tokens of confidence in Paris after the pitiful episode in Australia .


Still, the Canadian competition to come will undoubtedly be very open, and it will be necessary to be more convincing for Naval Group to win against the serious technological and commercial arguments in the hands of TKMS, Navantia, Daewoo or Mitsubishi. A relevant option could be to apply the same strategy as that implemented by Berlin during the Norwegian competition, by promising the acquisition of 2 or 3 additional submarines of the same class for the French Navy, so as to make lower construction costs and share development costs. Moreover, by proceeding in this way, Paris would give convincing guarantees to Ottawa as to the maintainability but also the scalability of its ships over time.

As for the costs of such an initiative for French public finances, they would be much lower than the tax revenue resulting from the execution of the Canadian contract for the part carried out in France. The French Navy, it would have 2 or 3 additional submarines, certainly with conventional and non-nuclear propulsion, but close in behavior as in systems to the Suffren, making it possible to free the SNA for missions specifically requiring this type of ship, while by simplifying maintenance and crew training. Finally, and this is far from negligible, this would give Naval Group an active fleet on which the manufacturer can support its future sales pitches, which the French company is sorely lacking today regarding the Shortfin Barracuda.
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Le Canada s’apprête à lancer une réplique de la compétition australienne de 2015 pour construire 12 sous-marins conventionnels – Meta-Defense.fr

meta-defense.fr meta-defense.fr
 
Pahoittelut jos tämä on jo ollut täällä, mutta törmäsin tällaiseen puolituntiseen videoon Sonarista. Ihan haastateltu USA ydinsukellusveneen sonar-vastaavaa hänen työpaikallaan tätä varten.

Sonar for dummies ja puoliväliä kohden alkaa melkoinen madness, jossa itellä ainakin menee aivot jo solmuun.

Haastattelija on fiksu ja osaa johdattaa sekä visualisoida asiaa katsojalle hyvin. Hän osaa myös esittää miehistölle siinä määrin hyviä kysymyksiä, että vastaukseksi tulee

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How Sonar Works (Submarine Shadow Zone)​


 
ak.tied kirjoitti:
Mahdotonta kuvitella mikä on tunnelma tuolla.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671475968077094914


https://twitter.com/x/status/1671414085253054465
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Logitechin 50$ peliohjain ostettu kaupasta jolla tuota ohjataan. Eikä edes ole vitsi. Mikään viranomainen ei ole hyväksynyt laitetta, mutta varotuksia saanut senkin edestä. Just näin meemin että olen minäkin valkoihoinen, mutta en sentäs ”sukellanpa titanicille itse tehdyllä sukellusveneellä valkoinen”.
 
Onhan nuo kommentit 'ylisäätelystä turvallisuuden nimissä' aika pysäyttäviä etenkin näin jälkikäteen. Elon Muskihan valitteli samaa ilmailuteollisuudesta, mutta hän ei ole sentään ketään vielä tapattanut.
Tuon hiilikuiturungon ongelma käsittääkseni on, ettei se kestä rasitussyklejä ja se pitää säännöllisesti uusia ettei murene. Tosin jos painerunko on murtunut niin kaikki sisälläolijat ovat kuolleet välittömästi eikä pelastuksella ole enää kiire.

Eräässä artikkelissa mukanaollut mainitsi että yhteys oli katkennut joksikin aikaa, ja kävi ilmi sukellusveneessä ollut minkäänlaista GPS-paikanninta, jos se sattuisi tulemaan pinnalle omin päin ilman yhteyttä emoalukseen. Firman edustaja funtsi että voisihan sellainenkin ihan kiva olla...

Jos suklari on päässyt pinnalle, niin ei sitä silti ole helppo löytää, eikä luukkua voi aukaista sisältäpäin: happi loppuu aivan yhtä lailla vaikka paatti olisi pinnalla.
 
fulcrum kirjoitti:
Onhan nuo kommentit 'ylisäätelystä turvallisuuden nimissä' aika pysäyttäviä etenkin näin jälkikäteen. Elon Muskihan valitteli samaa ilmailuteollisuudesta, mutta hän ei ole sentään ketään vielä tapattanut.
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Musk nyt sattuu operoimaan aloilla, jotka ovat hiukan sukellusveneharrasrusta säädellympiä...
 
Tavallaan ironista ja surullista, että kaiken kauhistelun kohteena olleet 'McGyveroinnit' eivät sittenkään ilmeisesti olleet aluksen tuhon syynä, vaan juuri se osio jonka piti olla todella viimeisen päälle, eli painerunko. Paatin runkohan oli kerran pitänyt jo uusia, oliko nyt talven aikana uusittu jälleen, vai ajateltu että 'kyllä se nyt vielä kestää'.
Jos mitään lohdullista onnettomuudessa on, niin ainakaan eivät joutuneet kärsimään vaan hengenlähtö on ollut välitön. Ja mitä tahansa Rushista nyt muuta voi sanoa, niin kapteeni meni laivansa mukana.
edit. tuosta videosta voi saada sen käsityksen että oltiin ensimmäisellä matkalla 4 kilsaan, Wikipedian mukaan Titan teki kahden edellisen vuoden aikana yhteensä 13 sukellusta Titanicille. Homma oli siis periaatteessa jo tuttua, mutta jokin rungossa sitten kuitenkin petti. Koska sitten uskalletaan tehdä seuraava hiilikuitusukellusvene? (Videon ukko tarkoitti kai sitä että kaupalliset sukellukset aloitettiin Rushin 3000 metrin soolosukelluksen jälkeen; Wikin mukaan OceanGate olisi kuitenkin käyttänyt Titania 4000 metrissä miehittämättömänä).
 
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