Ukrainan konflikti/sota

Tuossakos ne kymmenet tuhotut "panssarivaunut" nyt ovat? Yksi BTR-80 ja tuhottu kuorma-auto. Näyttää joltain ryhmältä joka ajeli vahingossa liian kauas.
 
Nyt kun puhutaan tuosta Venäjän mahdollisesta hyökkäyksestä, niin on paikallaan palauttaa mieleen mitä Moskovalainen riippumaton sotilasasiantuntija Pavel Felgengauer sanoi 27 kesäkuuta:
-Venäjän armeija ei ole valmis hyökkäykseen ennen Heinäkuun puoliväliä, joka siis on huomenna
-tilanne on "monikerroksinen" (monisyinen). Hän käyttää vertausta venäläisestä "matrjoska"-nukesta, josta paljastuu useita nukkeja (kerroksia) kun sen avaa
-Moskova ei salli rajan sulkemista, koska se tarkoittaisi että "jäätyneen konfliktin" -strategia epäonnistuisi
-aika joka ukrainalaisilla oli laittaa "talonsa kuntoon" alkaa siis olla ohi

Russian Army Won’t Be Ready to Intervene in Ukraine Before Mid-July, Felgengauer Says
www.interpretermag.com/russian-army-wont-be-ready-to-intervene-in-ukraine-before-mid-july-felgengauer-says/

Staunton, June 27 – The Russian military was ready to invade Ukraine in April but stopped short of doing so, Pavel Felgengauer, a leading independent military analyst in Moscow, says. Now it is not and probably won’t be until the middle of July at the earliest “regardless of what happens in Ukraine.


Felgengauer’s comments came in the course of a wide-ranging interview on Ekho Moskvy in the wake of Vladimir Putin’s decision to ask the Russian parliament to rescind its authorization for the use of force in Ukraine about where Moscow is now and what it is likely to do next.

Felgengauer began by suggesting that what is taking place in Ukraine and Russia resembles strategically “a matryoshka doll,” in which various layers are involved. “There are the separatists” who “in a military sense” are weaker than Kyiv and have lost to the Kyiv regime.” If no one else were involved, Ukraine would “liquidate them” in a month or two.

“But the Ukrainian forces are weaker than the Russian forces,” the independent Russian military analyst continues, and “Russia is weaker than the united West.” As a result, what is taking place is “a very complicated game” within and among these various levels.

Russia’s “strategic goal” is “now perfectly obvious: to transform what is taking place in Donetsk and Luhansk into a frozen conflict like Abkhazia or Transdniestria” by establishing a ceasefire, involving peacekeepers and observers, and thus “stabilizing the situation as it now exists.”

Such an outcome would give Moscow enormous advantages because it would leave it with “a serious lever” on Kyiv for a long time to come.

But getting to that point is “very complicated,” Felgengauer continued, not least of all because Kyiv and the West understand what Putin is trying to do and why. Kyiv doesn’t want to provoke Moscow, but it doesn’t want Moscow to succeed either. And the West is in much the same position.

Putin’s request that the Russian parliament rescind its authorization for the use of force is part and parcel of this game, he said. Kyiv wanted this as a confidence-building measure, even though everyone knows that the Federation Council’s approval is unnecessary – Putin didn’t get it for Georgia in August 2008 – or can be secured instantly whenever he asks for it.

But at the same time, the analyst said, “right now Russia is not prepared for any serious actions in Ukraine. We were ready in April, and at the end of April in essence moved forward. Then we stopped.” Felgengauer added that he did “not know why” the order to invade did not come at that time.

When it didn’t, “demobilization took place.” Draftees were sent home, tactical battalions were shifted. “Now several of them have returned but,” he said he “thinks” that “before the middle of July or the end of the world soccer championship final Putin plans to attend there will not be any sharp actions” regardless of what takes place on the ground in Ukraine.

“The second half of July and August are the times of some risk, depending of course on how the situation in Ukraine will develop,” Felgengauer said, although he added that “in Moscow, of course, they would like to get through this peacefully” by “freezing the situation and retaining the leverage it would give the Kremlin on Kyiv.

Securing the necessary agreements, however, may not happen because the Ukrainian military is gaining in strength. It is integrating its various elements, identifying and appointing better commanders, and elaborating better strategy and tactics, he suggested. If Russia weren’t continuing to supply the secessionists, Kyiv would win.

But Moscow “will not agree to closing” the border or stopping the flow of arms and personnel from the Russian side, Felgengauer said. To do so would be to give up on its frozen conflict strategy, one that has worked well for some time elsewhere. This time may be different, however.

The Ukrainian side, the Moscow analyst continued, also views a ceasefire as important “because [Kyiv and its forces] are becoming stronger.” Time is thus on Ukraine’s side, although the time it needs to “put its house in order” may be longer than it has, especially given that Moscow shows every sign of continuing to interfere.
 
Siipimies kirjoitti:
Ukrainalainen kenraali puhuu "suunsa puhtaaksi" ja kutsuu ukrainan sodanjohtoa "idiooteiksi", mikä kyllä selittäisi ukrainalaisten heikon sotamenestyksen
alkuvaiheessa. Lopussa on nuo muutamat lauseet:

"And Donetsk is not the tiny Slavyansk. If our “Napoleons” were not the cowardly idiots that they are, they could long ago have taken Donetsk with powerful razor strikes. It could have been done even today, maybe tomorrow. But the day after tomorrow it will be too late. And they will not get there by tomorrow. Because they are idiots.

Overall, unless there is some political or other incident, in the military sense, Donetsk can now continue to hold for a very long time. And our idiots can only blame themselves."

Muuten tuossa käsitellään Slavjanskia ja Strelkovin perääntymistä sieltä ja ollaan sitä mieltä että se oli hyvin ajoitettu ja välttämätöntä.

Ukrainian Army General Speaks His Mind, July 7th, 2014 – “Strelkov’s Operational Freedom”
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/20...-july-7th-2014-strelkovs-operational-freedom/

Original: Putnik LiveJournal
Translated from Russian by Gleb Bazov / edited by Ghayur Bangash (@Gbabeuf)

Preamble: The author of this letter is a Ukrainian Army general. He is considered to be one of the most capable ones in the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In general, he is loyal to any government, but is in shock from what is now happening. He has no direct involvement in the punitive operation, which makes him very happy. The text of his letter is quoted below in full, with necessary stylistic amendments and redaction of names and identifying information, in order to protect him from the Ukrainian Gestapo.

With respect to Strelkov’s breakout from Slavyansk, your Kurginyan is spouting absolute nonsense. I am not interested in his hidden motives, and I do not care for his “insider” information, which he may or may not possess; I am simply speaking about that which can be seen with the naked eye.

There is only one negative that comes from the surrender of Slavyansk—any retreat is unpleasant to the side that retreats.

Now, let us talk about why it was necessary to surrender Slavyansk.

Operational Perspective

Following a complete encirclement and blockade, the elimination of a defending force is simply a matter of time. Their supplies, including ammunition, will run dry. Breaking through the blockade [to establish supply lines] would have been an impossible feat for the riffraff forces of the DPR [Donetsk People’s Republic].

Slavyansk is a relatively small city, and it is very difficult to defend it from an operational-tactical point of view. Especially when it has been encircled.

The salvation of the most battle-worthy forces of the DPR, which were forged together in battle conditions and have accumulated good battle experience and fighting morale, is a far more important matter than the retention of just one settlement, even if it has become a Symbol [of the resistance].

The “Slavyansk Impasse” was meant to give the DPR time to create functional armed forces. By and large, this time was wasted—the forces that exist are neither united nor coordinated. To draw the situation out any longer would have meant certain demise. The Slavyansk grouping will serve as a good backbone for a quick unification of the existing armed forces, and Strelkov will provide the necessary unity of command, without which an army cannot exist.

Once they had set up a complete blockade of Slavyansk, our guys no longer needed to assault the city, nor did they intend to. They planned instead to take Donetsk, which had yet to establish a proper defence strategy. “Strelok” and his men would have been left out of the action, wasting their potential and losing their significance.

And now it turns out that, while the larger and better part of the [Ukrainian] forces is devoted to the Slavyansk front, a quick exit gave [Strelkov] a few days’ head start—our guys are unable to quickly react to the changed circumstances, and this provides [Strelkov] with several days to evolve his strategy and tactics.

Bear in mind that [our command] had no idea about [Strelkov’s plans] until the very end. According to our intelligence, “Strelok” planned to sit on the defensive until the bitter end. Some are already starting to pay for this mistake with their stars.

From the standpoint of the growing threat, the exact moment for the breakout was masterfully selected. It was done at exactly the right time—neither too early, nor too late. I have a feeling that if Strelkov played the foreign exchange market he would have become a millionaire…

Humanitarian Perspective

This Kurginyan says that the residents were “abandoned” without any defence. Let us imagine that Strelkov had decided to defend the residents of Slavyansk to the last resident of Slavyansk. What would have happened?

Our guys were given a “blank cheque” to do anything it takes. They were given guarantees that all of it would be written off. They would have erased Slavyansk from the face of the Earth with artillery, and half of the population, or more, would have died. The wounded would have died without medical care. Many of them grieviously. Hunger, epidemics. At the end of it all, after massive losses, the city would have been taken in one, two, three weeks and—no one can predict what would have happened next.

Yet, having entered the city after the Militia and the active citizens left in an organized manner, they will shy away from perpetrating a real massacre. They need it to be pretty. Kiev ordered them to behave. There will surely be arrests, on a serious scale, but they will not massacre everyone in sight. That is already something.

Moral-Political Perspective

The elimination of the Slavyansk grouping in two to three weeks would have meant the loss of half of the battle-worthy units of the DPR’s armed forces. The loss of the garrison would have multiplied many times the morale effect of the loss of Slavyansk. It would have led to utter demoralization and a quick defeat of the remaining forces.

The organized breakout from encirclement should be considered a small, but important tactical success. The plan to blockade “Strelok” and eliminate his grouping has failed. At the same time, Donetsk received quality reinforcements (experienced and motivated fighters with a high level of morale) with a leader who will now start purging the prevailing Makhnovshchina [Note: a reference is made to a state of disunity, confusion and vacillation in the absence of unified command]. These are the ABCs [of military organization]. During wartime, the full panoply of state power must be concentrated in the hands of the military administration. There is no other way. Thus far a formal DPR Minister of Defence, [Strelkov] must now take the reigns of military, and much of the civilian, power in his hands. Which is what, by the looks of it, he is already doing.

In Sum

  1. The most battle-worthy units of the DPR, along with military equipment, have been preserved.
  2. The lives of many residents of Slavyansk have been spared.
  3. The Donetsk garrison has been substantially reinforced.
  4. There are now prospects that order will be brought to the DPR leadership. Especially in terms of military organization.
  5. “Strelok” has gained access to resources that were being wasted in Donetsk and were not reaching his units.
And Donetsk is not the tiny Slavyansk. If our “Napoleons” were not the cowardly idiots that they are, they could long ago have taken Donetsk with powerful razor strikes. It could have been done even today, maybe tomorrow. But the day after tomorrow it will be too late. And they will not get there by tomorrow. Because they are idiots.

Overall, unless there is some political or other incident, in the military sense, Donetsk can now continue to hold for a very long time. And our idiots can only blame themselves.
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Tämä voi olla myös taitavasti tehtyä itäpropagandaa. Lähteenä olevan blogin otsikko:

No Limit to Our Anger (c) V. M. Molotov
They will never forget, nor will they ever forgive, these crimes.

molotov_vm.jpg


Blogin sisällöstä aika iso osa on kuvausta UA:n hirmutöistä, kuulemma mm. ristiinnaulitsevat lapsia.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/

"They took a child, 3 years old, a little boy. He was wearing little briefs and a t-shirt. They nailed him, like Jesus, to the announcement board. One of them was nailing him, while two others held him fast. And this was all in front of his mother’s eyes.

(starting to cry) They were holding the mother, and the mother watched all this happen – how the child was shedding blood, screaming, crying. And then they made cuts [on his body], like this [showing with her hands] – so the child would suffer. It was impossible [to be] there. People were losing consciousness.

And then, the mother – after the child suffered an hour and half and died after all of this – they took the mother, tied her, unconscious, to a tank and dragged her around the square three times. And to go around the square once is one kilometre."
 
Vonka kirjoitti:
Onko parempaa hetkeä? Koko Euroopan virkamiehistö aloittaa kesälomansa.

Venäläiseen taktiikkaan kuuluu hivutus ja "koepallot" sekä reaktioiden analyysi. Lähetetään tsetseenejä ja tarkkaillaan. Kun silmät suljetaan, laitetaan kuorma-autoja ja vähän rostovilaisia palkkamiehiä (seassa joitakin vdv-joukoista otettuja taistelunjohtajia). Katsellaan vähän. Pannaanpas tankkeja yli koepalloksi...

Nyt ovat jo raskaat ohjukset menossa.

Lännen nysväily tulee paradoksaalisesti aiheuttamaan juuri sen, mitä länsi halusi välttää: kriisin eskaloitumisen. Kyseessä on antiikin tragedian puhdasoppisin piirre, peripetia. Tragedian sankari haluaa välttää kohtalonsa ja juuri tuolla liikkeellä hän aiheuttaa sen. Traagisella sankarilla on aina joku luonteen heikkous, joka aiheuttaa tuhon. Euroopalla se on heikkous ja ahneus. Turmeltunut ja degeneroitunut vanha manner ei sitten kyllä ansaitsekaan muuta.

Tämän vuoksi olin alusta asti vaatimassa kovia toimia kapinallisten suhteen, heti kun niitä alkoi näkyä. Minua syytettiin sotahulluksi. Perkele, minä olen rauhan mies ja juuri siksi on oltava luja ja kiireesti. Jokainen Kollaan mies oli rauhan mies, ei mitkään Tuomiojat voi muuta kuin hieroa risupartaansa kun ihmisiä kuolee rosvojen aseisiin.

Tie helvettiin on aina katettu hyvillä aikomuksilla.
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Muistan nuo vaatimukset, mielestäni olit täysin oikeassa niiden suhteen.
 
Myrskyhiiri kirjoitti:
Tämä voi olla myös taitavasti tehtyä itäpropagandaa. Lähteenä olevan blogin otsikko:

No Limit to Our Anger (c) V. M. Molotov
They will never forget, nor will they ever forgive, these crimes.

molotov_vm.jpg


Blogin sisällöstä aika iso osa on kuvausta UA:n hirmutöistä, kuulemma mm. ristiinnaulitsevat lapsia.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/

"They took a child, 3 years old, a little boy. He was wearing little briefs and a t-shirt. They nailed him, like Jesus, to the announcement board. One of them was nailing him, while two others held him fast. And this was all in front of his mother’s eyes.

(starting to cry) They were holding the mother, and the mother watched all this happen – how the child was shedding blood, screaming, crying. And then they made cuts [on his body], like this [showing with her hands] – so the child would suffer. It was impossible [to be] there. People were losing consciousness.

And then, the mother – after the child suffered an hour and half and died after all of this – they took the mother, tied her, unconscious, to a tank and dragged her around the square three times. And to go around the square once is one kilometre."
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Tämä kirjoitus ei oikein sopinut tuohon blogin muiden kirjoitusten linjaan, muuten kuin sen osalta että siinä puolustettiin Strelkovia.

Aika "ovelaa" olis Putinilta tosiaan yllyttää ukrainalaisia tehostamaan ja nopeuttamaan sotatoimiaan: se kun on juuri päinvastoin mihin Putin pyrkii.
 
Ukrainian Government: Russian Military Officers Are Fighting In Ukraine As Russian Troops Crowd The Border

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday Russian military staff officers were fighting against Ukrainian forces alongside separatist rebels and a new Russian missile system was being used on the separatist side.


"In the past three days a new Russian missile system has been used against the armed forces of Ukraine," he told security chiefs.

"Information has also been confirmed that Russian staff officers are taking part in military operations against Ukrainian forces," he said, according to his website.

A Ukrainian military spokesman also said on Monday that Russia is building up forces on its border with Ukraine, and separatists, backed by Russian "mercenaries", are firing on Ukrainian border guards in an attempt to bring armoured vehicles into the country.

Accusing Russia of embarking on a course of escalation in Ukraine's eastern regions, National and Security Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko told journalists:

"In the past 24 hours, deployment of (Russian) units and military equipment across the border from the Sumy and Luhansk border points was noticed. The Russian Federation continues to build up troops on the border."

In the early hours of Monday, separatists had fired on border guards and the armed forces near the border settlement of Dyakove, one of several attacks on border guards as "terrorists and Russian mercenaries" tried to bring in armoured vehicles and equipment, he said.

"The events of the last few days show that the Russian side has embarked on a course of escalation of the conflict in the Donbass," he said. Lysenko accused rebel fighters of being behind the cross-border shelling of a Russian residential area in which a Russian man was killed and which Moscow says was the work of Ukrainian forces.

"The (rebel) fighters systematically fire mortar and shoot into Russian territory which killed a Russian citizen," Lysenko said.

Russia was presenting these shooting incidents as the action of Ukrainian forces but these accusations were "absolutely unfounded," he said.

(Reporting by Natalya Zinets; writing by Richard Balmforth, Editing by Timothy Heritage)



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukra...-troops-crowd-the-border-2014-7#ixzz37SU5CshY
 
sirppimestari kirjoitti:
Näiden pitäisi olla UA ajoneuvoja. Miten nämä on päästy tuhomaan, mielestäni nämä ovat vähän huonossa kohdin väijytystä ajatellen. joten ilmaisku?
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Tuossa vasemmassa tien laidassa on ainakin kaide vääntynyt tielle päin... IED tai kylkimiina?
 
Siipimies kirjoitti:
Tuo voisi olla optimistin näkökulma. Pessimisti voisi sanoa että Donetskin kanssa piti olla nopea. Mitä realisti sanoisi ?
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Olen monessakin asiassa huomannut olevani samoilla linjoilla kuin sinä. Siinä mielessä nimettön kenraalin kurnutus sisältää vähän villojakin. Donetskin lentokenttäkahakan yhteydessä kapinalliset jo jättivät Donetskin, Pushilin pakeni ja sitten yöllä rautatieasemalle asti takaa-ajossa olevat joukot vetäytyivät ja ATO piti taas huilaustauon. En ymmärtänyt asiaa silloin enkä vieläkään. Ilmeisesti kapinalliskeskus Slovianskissa oli jossain byrokratiassa lyöty ensikohteeksi lukkoon?

Koko ajan kyse on olllut siitä, miten kapinalliset vahvistuvat, saavat aseita ja miestäydennystä. Tässä ei todellakaan ole noudatettu sääntöä "vastahyökkäys ei voi tulla liian aikaisin".
 
Raveni kirjoitti:
Ukrainian Government: Russian Military Officers Are Fighting In Ukraine As Russian Troops Crowd The Border

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday Russian military staff officers were fighting against Ukrainian forces alongside separatist rebels and a new Russian missile system was being used on the separatist side.


"In the past three days a new Russian missile system has been used against the armed forces of Ukraine," he told security chiefs.

"Information has also been confirmed that Russian staff officers are taking part in military operations against Ukrainian forces," he said, according to his website.

A Ukrainian military spokesman also said on Monday that Russia is building up forces on its border with Ukraine, and separatists, backed by Russian "mercenaries", are firing on Ukrainian border guards in an attempt to bring armoured vehicles into the country.

Accusing Russia of embarking on a course of escalation in Ukraine's eastern regions, National and Security Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko told journalists:

"In the past 24 hours, deployment of (Russian) units and military equipment across the border from the Sumy and Luhansk border points was noticed. The Russian Federation continues to build up troops on the border."

In the early hours of Monday, separatists had fired on border guards and the armed forces near the border settlement of Dyakove, one of several attacks on border guards as "terrorists and Russian mercenaries" tried to bring in armoured vehicles and equipment, he said.

"The events of the last few days show that the Russian side has embarked on a course of escalation of the conflict in the Donbass," he said. Lysenko accused rebel fighters of being behind the cross-border shelling of a Russian residential area in which a Russian man was killed and which Moscow says was the work of Ukrainian forces.

"The (rebel) fighters systematically fire mortar and shoot into Russian territory which killed a Russian citizen," Lysenko said.

Russia was presenting these shooting incidents as the action of Ukrainian forces but these accusations were "absolutely unfounded," he said.

(Reporting by Natalya Zinets; writing by Richard Balmforth, Editing by Timothy Heritage)



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukra...-troops-crowd-the-border-2014-7#ixzz37SU5CshY
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Minusta EU:n päättäjien pitää kokoontuia vaikka kesken kesälomien kriisin vuoksi ja pistää uusi pykälä silmään.
 
Minä taasen luulen että EU:lla on niin monta omaa lehmää ojassa että mitään todellisia päätöksiä tai sanktioita ei ole tulossa... Ukraina saa mennä kunhan eu saa halpaa kaasua ja muita raaka-aineita...

Itse olen sitä mieltä että EU:lla olisi nyt enemmän kuin hyvä paikka näyttää että se kykenee olemaan yhtenäinen, tekemään päätöksiä yhdessä ja tarpeen vaatiessa esittää sellaisia vaatimuksia että niitä kuunnellaan... Tällä haavaa venäjä aivan niin kuin kaikki muutkin pitävät eu:ta heikkona.
 
Vonka kirjoitti:
Onko parempaa hetkeä? Koko Euroopan virkamiehistö aloittaa kesälomansa.

Venäläiseen taktiikkaan kuuluu hivutus ja "koepallot" sekä reaktioiden analyysi. Lähetetään tsetseenejä ja tarkkaillaan. Kun silmät suljetaan, laitetaan kuorma-autoja ja vähän rostovilaisia palkkamiehiä (seassa joitakin vdv-joukoista otettuja taistelunjohtajia). Katsellaan vähän. Pannaanpas tankkeja yli koepalloksi...

Nyt ovat jo raskaat ohjukset menossa.

Lännen nysväily tulee paradoksaalisesti aiheuttamaan juuri sen, mitä länsi halusi välttää: kriisin eskaloitumisen. Kyseessä on antiikin tragedian puhdasoppisin piirre, peripetia. Tragedian sankari haluaa välttää kohtalonsa ja juuri tuolla liikkeellä hän aiheuttaa sen. Traagisella sankarilla on aina joku luonteen heikkous, joka aiheuttaa tuhon. Euroopalla se on heikkous ja ahneus. Turmeltunut ja degeneroitunut vanha manner ei sitten kyllä ansaitsekaan muuta.

Tämän vuoksi olin alusta asti vaatimassa kovia toimia kapinallisten suhteen, heti kun niitä alkoi näkyä. Minua syytettiin sotahulluksi. Perkele, minä olen rauhan mies ja juuri siksi on oltava luja ja kiireesti. Jokainen Kollaan mies oli rauhan mies, ei mitkään Tuomiojat voi muuta kuin hieroa risupartaansa kun ihmisiä kuolee rosvojen aseisiin.

Tie helvettiin on aina katettu hyvillä aikomuksilla.
Klikkaa laajentaaksesi...

Kuules nyt sotahullu rauhan mies, perkele EI PAKOTTEITA, ei nyt, aiemmin tai myöhemmin:

http://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/1074303512/Suomi+ei+hyvaksy+Venajan+vastaisia+pakotteita

Georgia 2008:

Vanhanen uskoo EU-maiden yhteisen kannan löytyvän Brysselissä
Suomi ei hyväksy Venäjän vastaisia pakotteita
Kotimaa | Turun Sanomat 30.8.2008 02:32 | 0

Ukraina 2014:

http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/a1405134729268

HS-haastattelu
Vanhanen: aseiden sijaan uhkan luo taloussota

Talouspakotepolitiikan aikakaudella Suomi voi olla ensimmäisiä häviäjiä. Siksi ei riitä, että Suomi tarkastelee EU:n asettamien yksittäisten Venäjän-vastaisten pakotteiden vaikutuksia. Tarvitaan kokonaisnäkemystä, Vanhanen sanoo.

Vanhanen vahvistaisi nopeaan tahtiin Suomen kahdenvälisiä suhteita Venäjään. "Venäjä-suhdetta on hoidettava itse."

"Mutta mitä pidempään mykkäkoulu Venäjän kanssa kestää, sen vaikeampi se on katkaista. Ja Venäjä ei aio joutua sellaiseen hankalaan tilanteeseen, jossa heidät jotenkin vapautettaisiin jostain pakotteista."

Sellaista päivää ei tule, että EU voisi todeta Venäjän käyttäytyvän Ukrainan suhteen jotenkin sopivalla tavalla, Vanhanen sanoo.

Nyt äkkiä keksimään jokin tapa, jolla Suomi voisi irtaantua EU:n linjasta ja käyttäytyä jotenkin sopivalla tavalla Venäjän suhteen :eek:!
 
Raveni kirjoitti:
Minä taasen luulen että EU:lla on niin monta omaa lehmää ojassa että mitään todellisia päätöksiä tai sanktioita ei ole tulossa... Ukraina saa mennä kunhan eu saa halpaa kaasua ja muita raaka-aineita...

Itse olen sitä mieltä että EU:lla olisi nyt enemmän kuin hyvä paikka näyttää että se kykenee olemaan yhtenäinen, tekemään päätöksiä yhdessä ja tarpeen vaatiessa esittää sellaisia vaatimuksia että niitä kuunnellaan... Tällä haavaa venäjä aivan niin kuin kaikki muutkin pitävät eu:ta heikkona.
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Ei se ole mikään ihme, että pitävät heikkona. Venäjä taitavasti tarttuu Saksaan ja vetää siitä Eurooppaa omaan suuntaansa tuon perhanan entisen harppisaksalaisen rintsikoista. Sorry.
 
Taitolaji kirjoitti:
Kuules nyt sotahullu rauhan mies, perkele EI PAKOTTEITA, ei nyt, aiemmin tai myöhemmin:

http://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/1074303512/Suomi ei hyvaksy Venajan vastaisia pakotteita

Georgia 2008:

Vanhanen uskoo EU-maiden yhteisen kannan löytyvän Brysselissä
Suomi ei hyväksy Venäjän vastaisia pakotteita
Kotimaa | Turun Sanomat 30.8.2008 02:32 | 0

Ukraina 2014:

http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/a1405134729268

HS-haastattelu
Vanhanen: aseiden sijaan uhkan luo taloussota

Talouspakotepolitiikan aikakaudella Suomi voi olla ensimmäisiä häviäjiä. Siksi ei riitä, että Suomi tarkastelee EU:n asettamien yksittäisten Venäjän-vastaisten pakotteiden vaikutuksia. Tarvitaan kokonaisnäkemystä, Vanhanen sanoo.

Vanhanen vahvistaisi nopeaan tahtiin Suomen kahdenvälisiä suhteita Venäjään. "Venäjä-suhdetta on hoidettava itse."

"Mutta mitä pidempään mykkäkoulu Venäjän kanssa kestää, sen vaikeampi se on katkaista. Ja Venäjä ei aio joutua sellaiseen hankalaan tilanteeseen, jossa heidät jotenkin vapautettaisiin jostain pakotteista."

Sellaista päivää ei tule, että EU voisi todeta Venäjän käyttäytyvän Ukrainan suhteen jotenkin sopivalla tavalla, Vanhanen sanoo.

Nyt äkkiä keksimään jokin tapa, jolla Suomi voisi irtaantua EU:n linjasta ja käyttäytyä jotenkin sopivalla tavalla Venäjän suhteen :eek:!
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Tuota Vanhasta pitäisi tutkia vähän tarkemmalla kammalla. Tai Keskustapuoluetta.
 
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