Ukrainan konflikti/sota

Samaan aikaan on pidettävä aktiivisesti dialogia Venäjän suuntaan siitä, että länsi ei valmistaudu hyökkäämään Venäjälle.
Siihen ei ole halua eikä sitä tehdä. Mutta puolustamaan valmistaudutaan.
Ei länsi ole koskaan ollut hyökkäämässä Venäjälle valloitusmielessä tai korvatakseen hallintoa, toki muuta vaikuttamista on ollut, että Putinin luoma diktatuuri saataisi murrettua. Itseasiassa ollaan yritetty välttää uutta kylmää sotaakin kaikin keinoin pitämällä dialogia auki Putinin jatkuvista valheista ja teoista huolimatta, mutta Ukrainan jälkeen Venäjä saa varmasti toimia samanlaisessa tyhjiössä rautaesiripun takana kuin yli 30 vuotta sitten. Globaali liiketoiminta lännestä sinne ei ainakaan ole palaamassa niin pitkään kuin Putin on vallassa. Kannattavan liiketoiminnan harjoittaminen mahdotonta suurten riskien takana, kun tiedetään miten länsi reagoi Putinin "operaatioihin", vuosikymmenien investoinnit voidaan vetää viikossa pöntöstä alas. Joitan opportunisteja sinne voi palata liiketoimintansa kanssa, mutta trendi lienee kuitenkin se, että Venäjän kanssa halutaan tehdä mahdollisimman vähän tulevaisuudessa. Niin taloudellisesti kuin poliittisesti.

Putin varmasti tietää itsekkin, ettei länttä kiinnosta hyökätä Venäjälle, mutta koska kyseessä on diktaattorin johtama ydinasevaltio, niin tykkäämme suojautua siltä. Toki Venäjän kansalle syötetään tätä roskaa, että iso paha NATO ja USA on hyökkäämässä Venäjälle heti kun saa siihen mahdollisuuden, koska ohjusjärjestelmiä sijoitetaan pitkin Eurooppaa. Valtionjohto kuitenkin ymmärtää Venäjällä varmasti todellisen syyn miksi NATO on päässyt aivan rajan tuntumaan, kun jatkuvasti uhkailee rajanaapureitaan ja historian valossa Venäjä on pitänyt konflikteista oman rajansa tuntumassa.

Ukraina saa toki päättää itse mitä tekee rauhan saamiseksi, mutta mihin Venäjä tyytyy säilyttääkseen maineensa ja mitä Ukraina on valmis uhraamaa on sellainen asia, jota varmasti kukaan ei tiedä. Venäjälle tuskin riittää Donetsk ja Luhansk alueluovutuksina, koska ovat enemmän tai vähemmän niitä hallinneet separistien välityksellä, eli mitä olisivat saavuttaneet tällä operaatiolla ja sillä hinnalla mitä ovat tähän mennessä maksaneet, eivät juuri mitään? Krimiltä jos maayhteyden takia luovutetaan enemmän tai vähemmän Venäjän nyt hallussa olevat alueet Donetskiin asti, niin se on aika iso pala purtavaksi, jos siinä samalla pitäisi myös leikata Ukrainan puolustusvoimien koosta ja julistautua puolueettomaksi. Toki sillä voisi Odessan pelastaa vielä ja pitää yhteyden merelle.

Hankala pala purtavaksi ja mahdoton sanoa mitä Venäjä tekee. Saas nähdä mitä tämän viikon neuvottelut tuottavat Ukrainan ja Venäjän välillä.
 
Taitaa ongelma olla se, että kun maat liittyvät Natoon, niin ne lopettavat suomettumispolitiikkansa ja vastaavat job tvoje madj, cyka. Ulkopuolella olevia pystyy painostamaan aivan eri tavalla.
Kun ulkopolitiikka perustuu uhkailuun ja kiristämiseen, niin naapurien luonteella on väliä. Ketä Venäjälle jää potkittavaksi, jos Suomi menee Natoon? Vähissä on heikot naapurit sen jälkeen
 
If the worst fears of Europe are realised and the conflict in Ukraine spreads across the continent to other neighbours of Russia, then Finland will be ready. It has supplies. At least six months of all major fuels and grains sit in strategic stockpiles, while pharmaceutical companies are obliged to have 3-10 months’ worth of all imported drugs on hand. It has civilian defences. All buildings above a certain size have to have their own bomb shelters, and the rest of the population can use underground car parks, ice rinks, and swimming pools which stand ready to be converted into evacuation centres. And it has fighters. Almost a third of the adult population of the Nordic country is a reservist, meaning Finland can draw on one of the biggest militaries relative to its size in Europe. “We have prepared our society, and have been training for this situation ever since the second world war,” says Tytti Tuppurainen, Finland’s EU minister. After spending eight decades living first in the shadow of the Soviet Union and now Russia, the threat of war in Europe “has not hit us as a surprise”. The improvised “total defence” strategy that has defined Ukraine’s dogged defence against Russia’s invasion, with newly-weds and shopkeepers reportedly taking up arms, has captivated people around the world. But what Finland calls its strategy of “comprehensive security” offers an example of how countries can create rigorous, society-wide systems to protect themselves ahead of time — planning not just for a potential invasion, but also for natural disasters or cyber attacks or a pandemic. A sports arena in Helsinki that can be adapted as an emergency shelter for civilians © Lehtikuva This is not only about military readiness. It also extends to what Charly Salonius-Pasternak, a security expert at the Finnish Institute of International Affairs, describes as the “boring, unsexy work” of ensuring that laws and rules work in times of crisis. Finland has created informal networks between the elites of the political, business and non-governmental-organisation worlds to prepare for the worst. It looks continuously at what its main weaknesses are, and tries to correct them to create as much resilience in the system before a crisis happens. The war in Ukraine has underscored how exposed Finland, with its 1,340km border with Russia, is to attack. The prospect of joining the Nato military alliance is now being discussed by Finnish leaders, as countries across Europe reassess their levels of co-operation on defence and security. For the first time in its history, a majority of Finns now support applying for Nato membership. But the country of 5.5mn people also sees the urgency of maintaining and upgrading its national strategy. “Given our geostrategic location, and our large land mass and sparse population, we need to have everything to defend the country . . . We train on many levels regularly to make sure everybody knows what to do — the political decision-making, what do the banks do, the church does, industry does, what is media’s role,” says Janne Kuusela, director-general for defence policy at the defence ministry. “The end result is you can turn this society into crisis mode if needs be.” The Winter War legacy Much of Finland’s preparedness stems from its own war with Moscow, which has echoes on the invasion of Ukraine. In 1939-40, Finns fought in the brutal Winter War to hold off the Soviet Union, but lost a large chunk of their territory as a result, including their most cosmopolitan city, Vyborg, and one of their main areas of industry. Rebuilding after this conflict, Finns vowed: never again. “We have had hard experiences in history many times. We haven’t forgot it, it is in our DNA. That is why we have been very careful in maintaining our resilience,” says president Sauli Niinisto. He points to opinion polls suggesting about three-quarters of Finns are willing to fight for their country, by far the highest figure in Europe. Finland has a wartime troop strength of about 280,000 people while in total it has 900,000 trained as reservists. It carried on with conscription for all male school-leavers even after the end of the cold war, when many countries in Europe stopped, and Helsinki has maintained strong defence spending even as others cut in the 1990s and 2000s. Almost a third of the adult population of the Nordic country is a reservist, meaning Finland can draw on one of the biggest militaries relative to its size in Europe © Lehtikuva Detailed planning is in place for how to handle an invasion, including the deployment of fighter jets to remote roads around the country, the laying of mines in key shipping lanes, and the preparation of land defences such as blowing up bridges. Jarmo Lindberg, Finland’s former chief of defence, says that the Finnish capital Helsinki “is like Swiss cheese” with dozens of kilometres of tunnels. “There are areas like a James Bond film,” he adds. All armed force headquarters are located in hillsides under “30-40 metres of granite,” he says. If a likely attack was detected by military intelligence, forces would be mobilised and, as far as possible, civilians would be evacuated from danger areas, a marked difference to what has happened in Ukraine. Kuusela says that the very core of Finland’s strategy is the will of its citizens to fight and defend a country, recently named by the UN for the fifth year in a row as the world’s happiest nation. “Being a Finn is a deal,” he adds. “We are number one in the world in being happy. On the other hand, the other side is that you are prepared to defend this . . . We had a near-death experience in the second world war that only strengthened us.” Strategic stockpiles Finns know this may well not be enough in itself, so they have also worked hard on preparing systematically for crises. “[We try] to make sure our society is strong and can deal with difficult times,” says Niinisto. “Readiness and preparedness are deep down in Finnish minds.” Key to this is enlisting Finland’s corporate sector to play a leadership role in preparations and in crisis management. Salonius-Pasternak considers Finland’s ability to call on its biggest companies at any time to tackle a national crisis a huge advantage as it “harnesses the market economy for a prepper society”. Each critical industry — such as telecoms, food supply, or energy — meets several times a year where, in carefully supervised discussions, they talk about issues that could affect their sector. In 1939, Finns fought in the brutal Winter War to hold off the Soviet Union © Hulton Archive/Getty Images “The fundamental idea is: if one company or sector is impacted, how do you still solve the problem? For instance, how do you feed the nation or keep it in toilet paper if there’s a blockade in the Baltic Sea?” says Salonius-Pasternak. Companies in Finland “get it,” says Kuusela. “The company leadership have been serving in the military. We don’t have business, we don’t have welfare, we don’t have growth, if our defence fails. It’s well understood.” The National Emergency Supply Agency (Nesa) helps co-ordinate this network of companies, but its responsibilities go well beyond that. It also has a balance sheet of €2.5bn, which consists of its strategic stockpiles of six months’ supply of grains such as wheat and oats, and different types of fuel such as petrol and diesel as well as certain undisclosed “strategic assets” including partial ownership of the national grid. Janne Kankanen, chief executive of Nesa, says the agency collects a small levy from all fossil fuel and electricity purchases in Finland, giving it “quite a lot of leeway so we have an ability to respond to different types of occurrence at very short notice”. A commuter passes a door to a civil defence shelter in Helsinki © Lehtikuva It can purchase critical material quickly, but can also look at different sectors and ask, for instance, if Finnish farmers will produce enough grain this season. Since December, it has been monitoring “extra intensively” the situation in Ukraine, pivoting from its previous focus on the Covid-19 pandemic. Through its network of companies in all sectors, it is able to “keep and develop a situational awareness”, Kankanen says, by ensuring information flows both ways about what is happening and potential problems. “In times of crisis like this, it’s of course easier because we have the system in place and don’t have to start building something from scratch,” he adds. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will lead to a discussion to raise preparedness, Kankanen stresses, and potentially increase stockpiles. The business elite and the military To ensure senior members of Finland’s establishment understand what is at stake, they are invited to participate in what the country calls National Defence Courses. Four times a year, a group of several dozen politicians, business leaders, and representatives from the church, media and non-governmental organisations meet for a month-long intensive programme involving lectures from senior military officers and government officials as well as a crisis simulation. Tuppurainen took part in 2014, while business leaders such as Jorma Ollila, former head of Nokia, and Mika Ihamuotila, chair of fashion brand Marimekko, attended almost as soon as they became chief executives. Salonius-Pasternak says it is “eye-opening” for business leaders to play politicians and vice versa in scenarios such as “the water level of the Baltic Sea rises, we have to shut down our nuclear power plants, or there’s a plague”. He adds: “Is there a solution to them? Of course there isn’t. The point is to get to know people, and to find out what problems a company or government could have in a crisis.” In total, 10,000 people have been trained in such courses over the past six decades and most intakes still meet regularly to discuss matters. A further 60,000 have attended regional defence courses. Salonius-Pasternak adds that the courses are probably the easiest element of Finland’s approach that other countries could easily emulate. An emergency shelter in Kallio, Helsinki. All buildings above a certain size have to have their own bomb shelters © Lehtikuva A more humdrum but no less essential part of preparedness is how Finnish authorities, after Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014, combed through all its security legislation to ensure it was fit for purpose and that “little green men” could not exploit any loopholes. Officials tell of painstaking work to ensure laws are adapted to a crisis situation, for instance allowing companies in the same sector to talk to each other in a national emergency without being accused of operating like a cartel. “It can be as simple as making sure a clause in each law contains something like ‘this provision would be suspended in a crisis’,” says one Finnish civil servant. Finland is not just focused on the threat of invasion, but on other forms of attack — be they local, such as the poisoning of a water source or taking out of a power station, or national, like cyber attacks. There’s an increasing focus on so-called hybrid threats, actions that are often ambiguous and do not meet the level of a full military attack. Teija Tiilikainen, director of the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats based in Helsinki, says that Finland needs to be “more proactive” in identifying its vulnerabilities in advance. In 2015, for instance, it was caught unaware by Russia sending illegal migrants over the border. “That Russia has started a war against a smaller neighbour can only strengthen the understanding of our vulnerability. Public awareness about risks and threats is at a high level,” she says. Now is the time for Finland to refocus its efforts, says Niinisto. “These decades when we have had full peace and welfare, life has been easier than it used to be. The worries and bad things have been further away. Because of that, we have now a wake-up call to improve.” Surviving a pandemic Before war broke out in Europe, Finland’s readiness was put to the test by Covid-19. While the consensus is that the country came through the pandemic in good shape, experts say it exposed room for improvement. The main issue came in difficulties in the government implementing and communicating decisions it had taken efficiently. One difficulty, for instance, was in testing arriving passengers at airports. The government took a decision but it turned out 21 different actors needed to be involved to implement it. “The number one issue is we need to streamline our crisis management system,” says Petri Toivonen, secretary-general of Finland’s security committee. But he adds: “We don’t want to have a system that is effective against Covid-19 but not against a military attack.” A selection of survival devices that are stored in shelters around the country © Lehtikuva A danger is always that authorities rectify things based on the previous crisis, but Toivonen says a strength of Finland’s approach is that it helps prepare for “black swans”, or unexpected events, by having as its main focus protecting the “vital functions” of society. Salonius-Pasternak says another issue is that the strategy sometimes overlooks the general public, out of a misconception that individuals need not be bothered if the system is in place. “People need to have a general idea of what to do. It’s an easy thing, and it helps with your first 72 or 96 hours of a crisis. This is where there is a lack, and some learning to be done,” he adds. There is little doubt that Finns are unnerved by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, another of its non-Nato neighbours. Helsinki has always striven for good neighbourly relations with Russia due to its long border but that hope has now been shattered. During the Cold War, Finland’s location forced it to accept neutrality to keep the Soviet Union at bay, but after joining the EU in 1995 and drawing closer to Nato over the past decades, there is a growing sense in Helsinki that membership of the military alliance would cement its status as an independent, western country. But there is also a belief that the Ukraine war demonstrates the wisdom of Finland’s approach all these years. “The simple idea is that it’s a country worth defending and therefore you have a larger responsibility, whether you’re a CEO or a school teacher,” says Salonius-Pasternak. What Ukraine has taught us, he continues, is that “the will to do something really matters. And if you combine that with, one, the network effects of a small country, and two, preparation, that’s really powerful.” Underlying it all is a sense that, even as Ukraine and the Nato debate change much in the country, the one constant is and will be that Finland will remain a neighbour of Russia. “Some say we have fought 32 wars against Russia, others 42,” says Lindberg, the former chief of defence. “All I know is that Russia will always be there, and we know we will be ready.”
 
Jos puhutaan sodasta pelkkänä sotana, niin venäjä ei voi mitään ehtoja asettaa Ukrainalle... Heidän on vaan tyydyttävä ehtoihin "Kaikki ryssät menee nyt omien rajojensa taakse, niin Krimiltä kun Ukrainan itäisiltä alueilta." Jos mukaan otetaan siviilien kärsimykset, tilanne muuttuu sikäli, että sota olisi saatava loppumaan mahdollisimman pian, eli myönnytyksillä on osuutensa. Jos sitte taas se ydinaseilla vouhkaaminen on vennään ainoa painava kortti, niin luulen että todellisuus siinäkin on normi ryssimistä tyyliin:" No nyt me sitte laukastaan nää ydinaseet, koska paha nato jne" ... Ekasta kymmenestä ohjuksesta räjähti jo siilossa kaheksan ja kaks eksy Barentsinmerelle.... Sitte onki Putlerin kortit katottu.... Niin ja se ryssän viimenen vinkasu, ennen ku koko maapallo tuhoutuu: " NATO on ampunut meijän ydinasetukikohtiin kaheksan ohjusta."
 
Viimeksi muokattu:
Globaali liiketoiminta lännestä sinne ei ainakaan ole palaamassa niin pitkään kuin Putin on vallassa.
Nykyisellä Venäjällä ei ole omaisuuden suojaa. Vaatii syvällisiä muutoksia, että maariski ei olisi kohtuuton naapurissa. Uusi silovikki tsaarina ei tuo oleellista muutosta.
os sitte taas se ydinaseilla vouhkaaminen on vennään ainoa painava kortti, niin luulen että todellisuus siinäkin on normi ryssimistä tyyliin:" No nyt me sitte laukastaan nää ydinaseet, koska paha nato jne" ...
Minkään tyylisen joukkotuhoaseen käyttäminen ABC-repertuaarista ei paranna Venäjän asemaa. Ainoastaan alleviivaa epäonnistumisen syvyyttä.

Kiovan suunnalla on rybyjen hyökkäys meneillään.
 
Imperiumin iltahuuto,
Neither Nato nor the Ukrainians can de-Putinise Russia. We Russians must clean up our country ourselves. Are my people up to the task? After the war, the world will help Ukraine to rebuild. But Russia will be in economic ruins. The collapse of the empire will continue in full force. Other peoples and regions will follow the Chechens towards independence. The Russian Federation will disintegrate. But the centrifugal force of the peoples and regions in the world’s last empire can be purifying and rehabilitating as well as destructive. The Russian consciousness must learn to accept that there can be several states with Russian as the state language. The empire must be removed from minds and souls like a malignant tumour. Only then can new states push through reforms.

But can a democracy establish itself without a critical mass of citizens, without a mature civil society? “The beautiful Russia of the future” (this is Alexei Navalny’s motto) should begin with free elections. But who will carry them out, and according to what rules? The same tens of thousands of terrified teachers who carried out the rigging in the country’s Putinian elections? And can one be sure that in truly free Russian elections, the “national traitor” from the democratic opposition will win, and not the “patriot” who fought against the “Ukrainian fascists”? A population hoping for a benevolent tsar cannot be turned into responsible voters in an hour. And who will implement democratic reforms? Officials who have become tainted with corruption and crime under the Putin regime must not be allowed to build a new state. And they are all tainted.

The world is calling for a “Russian Nuremberg”. But who in Russia will organise and carry out these legal proceedings? Who will make this great reappraisal of the past? Who will uncover the crimes and punish the guilty? The criminals themselves? One can remove and replace Putin, but how can one suddenly replace millions of corrupt officials, mercenary police officers and compliant judges?

A long, painful rebirth is the only way forward for Russia. And all these sanctions, the poverty, and the international outcasting will not be the worst thing we encounter along the way. It will be more terrible when there is no inner rebirth for the Russian people. Putin is a symptom, not the disease.

pitkä kirjoitus ja on hyvä että venäjä rupeaa tunnustamaan heikkoutensa, mutta onko tämä vain puhetta vai tekeekö ne asialle jotakin?
 
Yle radio 1 just nyt
Politiikkaradio: Venäjän tiedustelu ja Ukrainan sota
Miksi Venäjän tiedustelu epäonnistui Ukrainassa? Venäläistä tiedustelutoimintaa Ukrainan sodassa analysoi Jyväskylän yliopiston yliopistonopettaja, entinen pääesikunnan apulaistiedustelupäällikkö, eversti evp. Martti J. Kari. Toimittajana on Tapio Pajunen.
 
Lukusuositus: Arkadi Babtsenko: Sodan värit (Like).

Kaivoin hyllystä esiin ja luin uusiksi, ja kyllä, on hämmästyttävällä tavalla saman kaltaista venäläisjoukkojen suorittamista, kuin nyt Ukrainassa, yksityiskohtia myöten.

Kyse on muutaman päivän koulutuksen ja huijaamalla otetun sopimussotilassopimuksen allekirjoittamisen jälkeen Tsetseniaan lähetetyn alokkaan, myähemmin veteraanin, tarina: palveluksessa yhteensä neljä vuotta ja kaksi komennusta tsetseniaan. Mukana on jopa se täällä nyt Ukrainassa nähty mutavelliin asetettu teltta, jossa nukutaan veden keskellä. Materiaalivarkaudet, karkuruus (kun vaan jengi lähtee himaan), alkoholismi ja huumeet sekä nytkin videoilla näkyneet omien sotilaiden pahoinpitelyt, joka systeemin yksi pysyvä osa.

Hyvin kirjoitettu, dramaattinen, eikä muuta kuin kasarmielämää ja sotimista (ei siis rakkauskehystä tai lottia...).

Uutena ei kai saa edes Rosebud-kirjakaupasta, jossa laajin kirjavalikoima Suomessa, mutta kirjastoissa on, katsoin että ainakin pääkapunkiseudulla on.
Löytyy kirja hyllystä. hyvä, kannattaa lukea.
 
Todellisuudessa Venäjän suurin uhka on taas Venäjä itse. Aina ne jotenkin onnistuvat ryssimään asiansa,

Taloudellisesti lyödään polvillen, .......... Nythän tämä on jo hyvällä alulla ja toivottavasti jatkuu.

Mitään me ei lännessä voida sille mitä Venäjä tekee. Itse se tekee päätöksensä sillä tavalla mikä on heille tyypillistä
Voimme ainoastaan vaikuttaa läntisten demokratioiden omaan tekemiseen, joka lyhykäisyydessään on:
  • riitelevän paskiaisen kanssa ei tehdä mitään, sulkeutukoon oloihinsa omine sääntöineen
  • lopetetaan kauppa ja taloudellisesti ei auteta - näivettyköön rajan takana
  • päätetään omasta puolustautumisesta ihan täysin Venäjästä riippumatta, siltä varalta että hullu Johtaja saa päähänsä alkaa viimeisillä komponenteillaan sotimaan muidenkin kuin Ukrainan kanssa
  • annetaan ajan nyt vaan rauhassa kulua, aika tekee tehtävänsä
Siis oikeesti, mitään muuta me emme voi Venäjän kanssa tehdä.

Kunniaa Ukrainalle ja kiitos :salut:

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Kantama ei koptereilla ole suuri, joten operoivat todnäk läheltä etulinjaa, jos virallinen tukikohta ei ole käytössä. Hyvä tietää ja tarkastella lähialueiden sopivia maantien pätkiä.
Onko tie vain sen takia kun ne ei halua pellolle mennä, vaikka tasaista on joka puolella? Tulee taas ne kraaterit ja IEDt mieleen, vaikka niistä vihjattiin että pitäisi olla hiljaa asiasta, koska IEDt ei ole hyvä asia.
 
Niin, länsiosista kun niitä saadaan.
Joo. Januksen mukaan tehdään työstökoneilla niitä osia huikeita määriä. Tosin pieniä yksityiskohtia, kuten moottorit ja kaikki elektroniikka puuttuu. Saattaa myös kumiosat olla vaikeita eikä jesarillakaan voi paikata. Pitäisköhän heille toimittaa ihan sympatiasta helmitaulujen työstökone. Etää olisi edes joku laskin hihnalta pukkaavissa vehkeissä.
 
Venäjä ei tule saavuttamaan sitä pientä Pyrhoksen voittoa. Venäjälle laitetut pakotteet ovat niin rankat, että maa menee syvään slaavikyykkyyn ja kyky sotia vaan loppuu. Tämän tietää Ukraina ja sinnittelee odottaen Venäjän kaatumista.
Minun mielestä ei myöskään ole enää mitään esteitä laittaa kaikkia mahdollisia pakotteita peliin, että saadaan se lopullisesti kipattua nurin. Venäjää kun ei oikein tarvita enää missään. Ei ainakaan tällaista Venäjää. Taloudellisesti länsimaailman kannattaa nyt vähän aikaa ottaa takkiin, että saadaan se maa kunnolla luiskaan.

On paljon puhetta "torakkataloudesta" ja siitä miten kestävä Venäjän talous on. No kun energian ostot vähenee, katsotaan miten kestävä se oikeastaan sitten on.
 
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