Ilmasota
- Viestiketjun aloittaja Ikarus
- Aloitus PVM
Nurkantakanen
Kapteeni
Israelin ilmaisku Bagdadiin 1981:
Israelin käyttämät F-16 hävittäjät olivat alun perin Iranin shaahin tilaamia, mutta vuoden 1979 islamilaisen vallankumouksen jälkeen Yhdysvallat myi koneet Israelille.
Lisätty linkki F-16.net artikkeliin Israelin ilmavoimien F-16 -ohjelmista ja -tyypeistä:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html
Israelin käyttämät F-16 hävittäjät olivat alun perin Iranin shaahin tilaamia, mutta vuoden 1979 islamilaisen vallankumouksen jälkeen Yhdysvallat myi koneet Israelille.
Lisätty linkki F-16.net artikkeliin Israelin ilmavoimien F-16 -ohjelmista ja -tyypeistä:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html
Viimeksi muokattu:
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Nippelitietona todettakoon, että 2003 avaruussukkula Columbian onnettomuudessa kuollut astronautti Ilan Ramon otti osaa Osirakin reaktorin pommittamiseen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Ramon
Ramonin tuolloin lentämä F-16. Ilmavoittomerkki todisteena pudotetusta syyrialaiskoneesta.
John Hilly
Ylipäällikkö
Kaveri oli suomalaisten rakennustyömaalla ja näki hyökkäyksen.
Kertoi, että ilmatorjunta avasi tulen monta minuuttia sen jälkeen kun hyökkäys oli jo ohi ja jatkoi tyhjälle taivaalle tulitusta pitkään ja hartaasti.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Vartin mittainen dokkari Vapaan Ranskan Normandie-Niemen -hävittäjärykmentistä, joka soti itärintamalla neukkukalustolla.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandie-Niemen
Ranskalaiset osoittautuivat taitaviksi ja osaaviksi hävittäjälentäjiksi. Sodan lopussa ilmoittivat ampuneensa alas 273 saksalaiskonetta. Omat tappiot olivat 87 konetta ja 52 ohjaajaa. Neljälle pilotille myönnettiin Neuvostoliiton sankarin arvonimi. Neuvostoliittolaiset omana kiitoksenaan lahjoittivat Ranskalle 37 Jak-3 -hävittäjää, jotka rykmentin ohjaajat lensivät kotiin Ranskaan sodan loputtua.
Yksi Jak-3 on tätä nykyä näytillä Pariisin ilmailumuseossa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandie-Niemen
Ranskalaiset osoittautuivat taitaviksi ja osaaviksi hävittäjälentäjiksi. Sodan lopussa ilmoittivat ampuneensa alas 273 saksalaiskonetta. Omat tappiot olivat 87 konetta ja 52 ohjaajaa. Neljälle pilotille myönnettiin Neuvostoliiton sankarin arvonimi. Neuvostoliittolaiset omana kiitoksenaan lahjoittivat Ranskalle 37 Jak-3 -hävittäjää, jotka rykmentin ohjaajat lensivät kotiin Ranskaan sodan loputtua.
Yksi Jak-3 on tätä nykyä näytillä Pariisin ilmailumuseossa.
Ikarus
Respected Leader
Normandie-Niemen lentäjät piti Jak-hävittäjää ketterämpänä kuin varhaista Spitfireä. Joiden varhaiset versiot MK I - V oli tunnettuja erinomaisesta ketteryydestään.
Spitfireä toimitettiin varsin runsaasti myös neukuille, ja he eivät sillä saaneet aikaiseksi juuri mitään. Taistelukoneena huomattavasti heikommasta Airakobrasta taas tykättiin. Jolla (P-39) taas länsiliittoutuneet eivät Saksaa ja Japania vastaan ei kunnolla pärjänneet. Saksalaisia vastaan sillä ei lännessä muut kuin venäläiset tainneet edes lentää.
Myöskin nippelitietona mainittakoon, että turmasukkula lensi Teksasissa Lebanon-nimisen paikkakunnan yli. Niinpä voinemme pohtia, kuoliko israelilainen lentäjä Libanonin ilmatilassa.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Wikistä luntattua neukkuihin toimitettujen koneiden tilastoa
Vb: = 143
PR IV: = 9 (number not confirmed)
LF IX: = 1183
HF XI: = 2
LF XVI: = 9
Tuo on jo aika yllättävää että Mark 9:ä meni noinkin paljon. Ja sitähän moni RAF:n lentäjä piti yhtenä Spitin parhaimmista versioista. Yksi vähän aiheeseen liittyvä ikuisuuskysymys on ne suomalaisten ilmoittamat Spitfire-pudotukset. Veikkaan vahvasti että aika moni meikäläinen on sekoittanut mielessään Spitfiren ja jonkun Jakin versiot. Mutta kyllähän toisaalta itse Illu Juutilainenkin taisi omien sanojensa mukaan ampua alas Mustangeja ja P-38 -hävittäjiä.
Ikarus
Respected Leader
Pierre Clostermanin mukaan Spit V oli lentäjien kielenkäytössä "clipped, cropped and clapped".
Joo ei sillä FW 190 ja Bf 109 F:ää vastaan enää kunnolla pärjännyt.
Mutta se oli vielä ketterä ja mukava lentää, tätä mieltä on eräs nykypäivän Spit-pilotti.
Mk IX oli jo painavampi ja jäykempi, taistelukoneena se oli kuitenkin aivan eri luokkaa, kuin tuo vanhempi MK V.
Slammer
Kenraali
Tietääkseni ei ole mitään näyttöä siitä, että mainittuja tyyppejä olisi ikinä ollut Suomen rintamalla, saati että niitä olisi kohdattu. Jotkin väitteistä on myös myöhemmässä tutkimuksessa varmuudella tunnistettu tavanomaisemmiksi tyypeiksi. Tässä mielessä veikkauksesi lienee hyvin todennäköisesti se oikea.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Ovatkohan lueskelleet tätä Jak-3:n käsikirjaa ?
https://www.scribd.com/document/111244062/Manuel-Yak-3
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Kannatti tosiaan brittien työväenpuolueen hallituksen antaa 1947 myyntilupa Rolls-Royce Nene -suihkumoottoreille, joita neukut himoitsivat.
Klimov VK-1 on käytännössä suora kopio.
fulcrum
Greatest Leader
Eräs lentäjä väitti nähneensä Spitfiren jonka siivessä kajasti maalauksen alla brittiläinen roundeli. Jos havainto pitää paikkansa niin kyseessä on tietysti voinut olla myös Hurricane. Neukuille toimitetut Spitfire V:t olivat käytettyjä joten ei se mahdotontakaan ollut. Leningradin alueen PVO-yksiköillä on joitain spittejä voinut ollakin??
Pääasiassa "Spitfiret" on varmaan kuitenkin vain tunnistettu väärin. Myös neuvostolentäjät ilmoittivat joskus ampuneensa alas suomalaisia Spitfirejä. Jos lentäjille kerrotaan että tuollaisia koneita vihollisella on, niin niitä myös siellä nähdään.
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Ainakin talvisodan aikana venäläiset ilmoittivat kohdanneensa ja pudottaneensa suomalaisia Spitfirejä. Ovat saattaneet sekoittaa esim. Morane-Saulnier MS.406:n ja Spitin. Jatkosodassa taas ammuttiin alas finskien Fw-190:ä, jotka olivatkin Curtiss Hawk 75:a.
Ikarus
Respected Leader
Sama moottori kuin Bf 109 E:ssä (lisenssi) ja siipikin saman mallinen vähän jatkettuna, eipä ihme, että tunnistus meni vähän pieleen.
Oli muuten jenkeille lievä yllätys, että toisin kuin suurinta osaa muista japanilaisten koneista, Ki-61:sta ei syöksymällä perästä karistettu. Mutta laadunvalvonta ja valmistus olivat melko surkeita, joten viettivät kentällä suurimman osan eri vikojen kanssa.
John Hilly
Ylipäällikkö
Pitkä juttu IL-2 Sturmovikista:
https://warisboring.com/the-il-2-sturmovik-wrecked-nazi-tanks-a78bbc407680#.pkfgfrs6n
The IL-2 Sturmovik Wrecked Nazi Tanks
Soviet ground attackers flew to the rescue — by the thousands
by SEBASTIEN ROBLIN
If you had to choose one plane that defined Soviet air power in World War II, there can be little doubt it was the Il-2 Sturmovik “Flying Tank,” an armored ground-attack plane that hammered Nazi Germany’s tanks and troops from the opening days of Operation Barbarossa to the fall of Berlin.
Despite sustaining horrifying losses to opposing fighters and flak guns, Soviet industry fed tens of thousands of the sturdy warplanes into the struggle, making it the most extensively produced military aircraft type ever.
The Soviet Air Force, or VVS, was primarily oriented toward supporting troops on the ground, much like the German Luftwaffe. The latter revolutionized mechanized warfare by using Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers to provide relatively precise air support for fast-moving mechanized columns.
But after the initial shock of Stuka attacks early in the war, the slow and lightly armored dive bomber proved excessively vulnerable to enemy fighters and flak. Soviet aeronautical engineer Sergey Ilyushin proposed a Stuka-like plane with a twist — his ground-attack plane would be armored.
Simply bolting on armor plates is liable to make an airplane fly like a brick. Ilyushin’s solution was to make the steel armor an integral load-bearing element of the Il-2’s monocoque fuselage — even though the rear of the aircraft and the wings panels were still made of wood.
Il-2s over Berlin in April 1945. German Federal Archives photo
After several prototypes, the resulting single-seat Il-2 production aircraft weighed nearly 10,000 pounds, compared to 7,000 for the Stuka, and could carry a similar maximum bomb load of around 1,100 pounds. However, it was slightly faster, at 250 miles per hour, and more heavily armed, with two 20-millimeter cannons in addition to two machine guns in the wings.
An armored tub five to 12 millimeters thick shielded the cockpit, fuel tanks, AM38 engine and radiators. Even the canopy averaged six centimeters of armored glass. The Sturmovik’s robust landing gear was also designed to handle rough frontline airstrips.
Only a small number of Il-2s were deployed to frontline units — notably in the Fourth Aviation Assault Regiment — when the Wehrmacht began its devastating invasion of the Soviet Union on June 1941.
Thrust into a desperate effort to blunt German advancing mechanized spearheads, Sturmovik pilots discovered their armor rendered the Il-2 nearly immune to machine gun fire from the front, and even gave it a chance to survive 20-millimeter cannon shells.
However, the Sturmoviks sustained devastating losses as faster German fighter planes swooped around to hit their unarmored rears. German pilots dubbed the Il-2 the “Concrete Bomber” — a commentary perhaps both on its durability and agility, or lack thereof. During periods of intense fighting, one Sturmovik was being lost for every 10 combat missions, a ratio that would “improve” to one loss for every 26 missions in 1943.
The VVS lost more than 4,000 aircraft of all types in the disastrous first month of hostilities — the Fourth Regiment, for example, lost 55 of its 65 Sturmoviks — and the Il-2 production facilities had to be evacuated east of the Ural Mountains, interrupting deliveries for two months.
Yet as German tanks blazed a trail toward Moscow in the fall of 1941, Stalin found time to personally address this famous telegram to the Il-2 factory managers.
“You have let down our country and our Red Army. You have the nerve not to manufacture IL-2s until now. Our Red Army now needs IL-2 aircraft like the air it breathes, like the bread it eats. Shenkman produces one IL-2 a day and Tretyakov builds one or two MiG-3s daily. It is a mockery of our country and the Red Army. I ask you not to try the government’s patience, and demand that you manufacture more Ils. This is my final warning.”
Coming from a man who had given no warning whatsoever to hundreds of thousands of Red Army officers executed for suspected disloyalty, the message must have proven motivational.
More than 36,000 Il-2 Sturmoviks were built over the course of the war, making it the second most widely produced airplane ever. First place goes to the ubiquitous civilian Cessna 172.
An ex-Polish air force Il-2 in Warsaw. Alan Wilson photo via Flickr
Stalin would influence the Il-2 in another manner — after receiving a letter from a Soviet pilot begging for a tail gunner to defend against German fighters, he ordered Ilyushin to switch to two-seater Il-2s.
The Il-2M, introduced in 1942, had an extended canopy to accommodate the gunner of a rear-mounted 12.7-millimeter UBT heavy machine gun. Its wing cannons were also upgraded to high-velocity 23-millimeter VYa types.
Finding a suitable cannon for the Sturmovik proved a contentious process — the designer of one failed cannon prototype, Yakov Taubin, was executed for “plotting the production of inferior-quality weaponry.”
The tail gunners did prove useful in shooting down harrying German fighters. However, they weren’t protected by any armor plating, and suffered four times the fatality rate of the pilots. The additional crewmember and weapon also reduced flight speed and badly unbalanced the airplane by shifting the center of gravity towards the rear.
Nonetheless, such was the desperation of the air war over the Eastern Front then that the Il-2 was frequently called upon to serve as a fighter. While the Sturmovik had no way of keeping pace with German fighters, it proved deadly in taking down slower German bomber, observation and transport planes, resulting in several Il-2 aces.
Indeed, many Il-2 pilots achieved legendary status. Armenian Lt. Col. Nelson Stepanyan is recorded to have sunk 13 German ships singlehandedly, scored 27 air-to-air kills, blasted five bridges and destroyed nearly 700 vehicles on the ground. After being hit in a raid over Latvia in December 1944, he rammed his flaming aircraft into the deck of a German warship.
Anna Timofeyeva-Yegorova, a peasant’s daughter, became squadron commander of the 805th Assault Aviation Regiment and flew 243 combat missions in her Sturmovik before she was blasted out of her plane by anti-aircraft fire in August 1944. She went on to survive hitting the ground with a partially opened parachute, German captivity and its lack of medical care, and finally Soviet officers suspecting her of being a Nazi collaborator.
Air strikes by Sturmoviks would play a major role in crippling the effort to resupply the German Sixth Army trapped in Stalingrad during the winter of 1942–43, destroying 72 German aircraft on the ground at the airfield of Skalsk, and shooting down numerous transports in the air. The Sturmovik’s greatest moment of glory, however, came during the epic Battle of Kursk, popularly remembered as the largest tank battle in history.
The Il-2 disposed of a variety of specialized antitank weapons. It could carry eight 82-millimeter or four 132-millimeter rockets, but despite their excellent armor-piercing ability, they proved too inaccurate to be highly effective. PTAB bomblets carried in underwing dispensers were better because they required less precision — around 200 of the three-pound shaped charges could be deployed like cluster munitions to carpet an area 70 meters long and 15 meters wide with armor-piercing bomblets.
Il-2s over Berlin in May 1945. Photo via Wikimedia
Some Il-2s were equipped with two huge tank-busting 37-millimeter automatic cannons with 50 rounds of ammunition each. However, the cannons’ accuracy was so poor, due to excessive recoil, that production of this type was halted after construction of “only” 3,500 examples.
The Battle of Kursk actually began with one of the largest air battles of World War II, when German fighters scrambled just in time to blunt an enormous preemptive air strike by Soviet fighters and bombers. The aerial melee involved 500 warplanes and resulted in a few dozen German losses in exchange for around one hundred Soviet aircraft.
But Soviet commanders didn’t let the initial setback prevent them from feeding even more Sturmoviks into the battle. Il-2 pilots in Kursk began flying in “Circles of Death” over the battlefield to cover each other’s tails from enemy fighters, one aircraft at a time peeling away to make ground attack runs before rejoining the circle.
During the following weeks of fighting, Sturmoviks and Stukas competed frenetically to knock out the tanks of their adversaries. German airpower, including new Ju-87G Stukas and Hs. 129 attack planes with tank-busting cannons, supposedly single-handedly blunted the advance of the Second Guards Tanks Corp on July 8, knocking out 50 tanks.
The day before, Sturmoviks reportedly destroyed 70 tanks of the German Ninth Panzer Division, halting its advance.
More extraordinary claims were to follow. Sturmovik pilots reported the destruction of 270 tanks in the Third Panzer Division, and 240 tanks of the Seventeenth Panzer Division. Curiously, these two units had only 90 and 67 operational tanks at the beginning of the battle, respectively.
In reality, there is considerable evidence that reports of tanks killed by aircraft were greatly exaggerated by pilots of all nations in World War II. Operational research by teams on the ground tended to find that fewer than 10 percent of tank losses were attributable to air power.
The rockets, bombs and heavy cannons used by ground-attack planes were simply too inaccurate, and most could only penetrate the top armor of a tank, necessitating steep angles of attack.
Nonetheless, attack planes like the Sturmovik could still disrupt armored attacks, blast entrenched troops and artillery, and strafe columns of soft-skinned trucks and light armor. While some estimate between five and 10 Il-2s were lost for every Axis tank they knocked out — and aircraft are generally more expensive to build than tanks! — ground-attack planes proved their value against unarmored targets, which were in abundance.
Il-2s near Moscow in December 1941. RIA Novosti photo
By 1943, the VVS began to field the Il-2M3 model, which corrected many of the flaws of its predecessor. The tail gunner finally received 13 millimeters of plate armor, while the leading edges of the wings were swept back 15 degrees in order to compensate for the shift in the center of gravity, greatly improving the Sturmovik’s handling.
An uprated AM-38F engine boosted the Sturmovik’s speed to compensate for added weight.
Admittedly, the Il-2’s maximum bomb load remained unimpressive compared to that of higher-performing fighter bombers then entering service — but the Sturmovik was beloved for its ability to fly “low and slow” and could survive hits that nimbler fighters could not.
Thousands of Sturmoviks supported the Red Army through the end of World War II, even pounding the last entrenched defenders outside of Berlin in the massive four-day Battle of the Seelow Heights. By that time, the Il-2 was joined by an evolved cousin, the all-metal Il-10.
Though similar in appearance, the aerodynamically cleaner Il-10 had superior handling and benefited from a more powerful AM-42 engines, which raised maximum speed to 342 miles per hour. Of the 6,000 built through 1954, around 150 saw combat before the German surrender.
Soviet records state that a total of 11,000 Il-2s were lost in action during World War II, although some sources estimate the true total to be twice that. Whatever the case may be, a great many Sturmoviks served on into the 1950s in the VVS and in states such as Mongolia, Yugoslavia and Poland.
The Il-2 and Il-10 were even accorded the NATO codenames “Bark” and “Beast,” respectively.
While the Il-2 had seen its last battle, however, the Il-10 had not. North Korea received 93 Il-10s, which served in its 57th Assault Aviation Regiment. These played a major role in blasting South Korean troops in the opening weeks of the Korean War in 1950, but as U.S. air power entered the fray, more than 70 were shot down or destroyed on the ground, and the type was withdrawn from frontline operations.
The Chinese PLAAF, too, operated 254 Il-10s until 1972. These sank a Republic of China landing ship January 1955 during the Battle of Yijiangshan Islands, struck the garrison at Kinmen Island later that year and bombed Tibetan villages in 1958.
After World War II, Soviet aircraft designers focused on light, speedy fighter bombers for ground support. A true successor for the Sturmovik didn’t emerge until the late 1970s in the armored Su-25 Frogfoot attack plane, which continues to see extensive action around the world today.
Even the U.S. Air Force’s A-10 Warthog pays tribute to the Sturmovik’s design principles.
The Sturmovik’s mission as a low and slow ground pounder exposed its crews to extraordinary danger that no amount of armor plating could protect entirely against. But despite sustaining terrible losses, the Russian attack pilots gave desperately needed air support for the hard-pressed Red Army, enabling it to withstand and ultimately drive back the fascist onslaught.
https://warisboring.com/the-il-2-sturmovik-wrecked-nazi-tanks-a78bbc407680#.pkfgfrs6n