Ukrainan konflikti/sota

Putin on pettänyt pahasti lupauksensa, ja onneksi niin. Jää nähtäväksi miten tämä vaikuttaa hänen tulevaisuuteensa Venäjällä jos talous jatkaa syöksykierrettään. Toivottavasti Ukrainalaiset saavat haltuunsa loput Itä-Ukrainasta ilman suurempia siviilitappioita.

http://time.com/2969586/vladimir-putin-russia-ukraine-rebels/

Ukraine Rebels Call Putin a Coward After Russian Inaction
12:24 PM ET
president-vladimir-putin-russia.jpg

President Vladimir Putin in Kremlin, July 4. Alexei Nikolsky—Itar-Tasss/ZumaPress
Early promises of help from Russia go unfulfilled

The rebel commander in eastern Ukraine was sure Russia’s tanks would soon come grinding over the border to his rescue. He even had an idea of what would provoke the invasion—“130 corpses,” he told TIME. “When they see that on Russian TV, they’ll come and help us.”

That was in the middle of April, and since then the body count in eastern Ukraine has far surpassed that figure. Even the commander himself, who went by the nickname Romashka, is now among the dead, having been shot by a Ukrainian sniper in his stronghold of Slavyansk at the beginning of May. No Russian troops ever came to help him.

For the Ukrainian government that has been a saving grace, allowing its army to force the pro-Russian militants into retreat over the weekend, killing scores of them in the process. But for Russian President Vladimir Putin, this turn in the conflict presents a painful dilemma. His pledges of support for the separatists now seem like false promises to the rebel leaders—and to their many supporters in Russia—and they have begun openly accusing Putin of cowardice and betrayal. The patriotic spell that he cast on his electorate with the annexation of Crimea in March now seems to have lifted, and his sky-high approval ratings are now likely to come down to earth.

The change in tone is already evident on Russia’s propaganda channels, which still depict the rebel fighters as heroes and martyrs—but not a part of any Russian war. “No one is talking about sending in troops anymore. That conversation is over,” says Mikhail Leontiev, one of the leading spin doctors on state-controlled TV. “Now the people need to understand that if Russia falls into this military trap, it will be worst of all for the people of eastern Ukraine, even for the fighters among them,” he tells TIME.

The fighters would beg to differ. In endless missives to the Russian leadership over the past few months, they have asked with growing anger and desperation for the Kremlin to send in troops or at least provide them with advanced weaponry. “We don’t have the means to fight so many tanks,” Igor Girkin, the rebel commander in eastern Ukraine who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, said in a video appeal to Moscow on June 19. “I’m still hoping that Moscow has enough shame to take some kind of measures.”

But instead of offering much material assistance, Putin’s allies seem to have launched a slander campaign against Girkin and his men, even accusing them of “crying like women” about a lack of firepower before abandoning the rebel stronghold of Slavyansk this weekend. “He gave up the city without any pressure from the Ukrainian side,” Sergei Kurginyan, another prominent Kremlin propagandist, said in a video denunciation of the rebels. “No one was advancing against him.”

This claim seemed out of sync with the fighting on the ground. For days before the rebels fled Slavyansk on July 5 the Ukrainian army had besieged them, bombarding their positions with heavy artillery and cutting off supplies of food, electricity and water. Indeed, in the first week of June, Kurginyan had himself campaigned for Russia to send military contractors to assist Girkin and his men.

But that was before Putin made his sudden turn toward the role of a peacemaker in Ukraine. His reasons were pragmatic. Western sanctions had already broken financial ties—and frozen bank accounts—that Kremlin elites had spent years nurturing. The next round of sanctions would likely have sent Russia’s economy into a recession, putting at risk the state programs and paychecks that feed Putin’s loyal bureaucracy. A full-scale invasion would also risk a military quagmire that would further drain the Russian budget, as Ukraine’s army has mustered a force impressive enough to put up a serious fight. So in late June, Putin asked his legislature to withdraw his permission for the use of military force in Ukraine, and he began calling for peace talks in league with Western mediators.

The rebels were not the only ones to see this as a sign of duplicity. Russian nationalists have begun to turn on him as well, posting diatribes and even music videos that seek to goad Putin into war, juxtaposing his pledges to “defend the Russian world” with images of bombed-out villages and Russian corpses in Ukraine. “We gave them hope,” Alexander Dugin, one of the leading nationalist ideologues in Russia, said during a television appearance last week. “When we said we’re a united Russian civilization, this didn’t just come from a few patriotic forces. It came from the President!”

And it will not be easy for Putin to back away from those promises. A nationwide poll taken at the end of June suggested that 40% of Russians supported military intervention in Ukraine, up from 31% only a month earlier. This segment of society is largely made up of young, poor and undereducated nationalists, as well as elderly people nostalgic for the glory of the Soviet Union, according to Lev Gudkov, the director of the Levada Center, the independent polling agency that conducted those surveys. After the Russian annexation of Crimea, the euphoria among these parts of the electorate helped push Putin’s approval ratings toward record highs of over 80% “The revival of those strong imperialist feelings, playing on the idea of a fallen nation rising up, all of that ensured the sudden upswing in support for Putin,” Gudkov said. “But I don’t think that can last, probably not even past this fall.”

The all-time peak in Putin’s popularity, Gudkov points out, came right after the Russian invasion of Georgia in August 2008, when his approval ratings jumped to 88% before quickly getting dragged down by the effects of the global financial crisis. By the spring of 2009, they were down to 55%—propped up by what Gudkov calls the apathetic mass of civil servants and state dependents who support Putin “because there is not other choice.”

That slump is now likely to recur. The Russian economy is once again stagnating, this time from the effects of the Western sanctions, and there are already signs that consumers are suffering from the resulting slump in the value of the ruble. New car sales, for instance, fell by a remarkable 17% last month, and the estimated cost of developing Crimea—roughly $18 billion—will put further strain on the federal budget. Such bread-and-butter problems are not enough to dissuade the jingoist minority in Russia, and they are certainly not much help to rebels fighting and dying in eastern Ukraine.

But as the last few weeks have shown, Putin is not the Napoleon many of them believed him to be.
 
Video Seversky Donetsin sillasta jonka separatistit ovat räjäyttäneet Semenivkan lähellä. Näyttäisi olevan siltojen räjäytyskampanja meneillään.


Sitä rupesin miettimään, että kun sillan kansi on pudotettu tuolla tavalla, niin voisikohan tuota kantta pitkin koettaa kahlata tankilla yli? Hieman valmisteluja se varmasti vaatisi, kun se kansi tuskin yltää yli puolen välin, mutta se voisi olla yrityksen arvoista.
 
Luulen, että separatistit pitäisi nujertaa kohtuullisen nopeasti koska separatistien ahdinko voi nousta Venäjän median ykkösaiheeksi ja tällä tavalla luoda vaarallista painetta Venäjän hyökkäykselle.

Poroshenko kielsi Ukrainan armeijalta ilmavoimien ja tykistön käyttämisen Donetskin ja Luhanskin suurkaupungeissa. Kielto on täysin selvä. Ei asutuksessa voi pommittaa ilmavoimilla ja tykistöllä. Toisaalta kielto avasi separatisteille mahdollisuuden pommittaa tykistöllä ja panssarivaunuilla ja Stalinin uruilla Ukrainan sotilaita, joilla ei siis ole oikeutta vastata asutuksen keskeltä tulevaan pommitukseen tykistöllä, panssarivaunuilla ja ilmavoimilla. Ukrainan pitänee lähettää kommandot yrittämään vaientaa separatistien tuliasemat lähitaistelun avulla. Separatistien tuliasemien sijainnit etsitään varmaankin lennokkien avulla ja joiden avulla myös havaitaan omien joukkojen sijainnit ja käskytetään heidän liikkeitään.
 
Viimeksi muokattu:
Luulen, että separatistit pitäisi nujertaa kohtuullisen nopeasti koska separatistien ahdinko voi nousta Venäjän median ykkösaiheeksi ja tällä tavalla luoda vaarallista painetta Venäjän hyökkäykselle.

Poroshenko kielsi Ukrainan armeijalta ilmavoimien ja tykistön käyttämisen Donetskin ja Luhanskin suurkaupungeissa. Kielto on täysin selvä. Ei asutuksessa voi pommittaa ilmavoimilla ja tykistöllä. Toisaalta kielto avasi separatisteille mahdollisuuden pommittaa tykistöllä ja panssarivaunuilla ja Stalinin uruilla Ukrainan sotilaita, joilla ei siis ole oikeutta vastata asutuksen keskeltä tulevaan pommitukseen tykistöllä, panssarivaunuilla ja ilmavoimilla. Ukrainan pitänee lähettää kommandot yrittämään vaientaa separatistien tuliasemat lähitaistelun avulla. Separatistien tuliasemien sijainnit etsitään varmaankin lennokkien avulla ja joiden avulla myös havaitaan omien joukkojen sijainnit ja käskytetään heidän liikkeitään.

Tuo "nopean voiton taktiikka"-lääke voi olla Ukrainalle "liian kallis ja maistua hyvin pahalle" ainakin jos on uskominen noita allamainittuja asiantuntijalausuntoja:
- tulee liikaa ruumispusseja
- Ukrainalla ei ole tarvittavia erikoisjoukkoja eikä tuollainen ole onnistunut niidenkään avulla sen paremmin USA:lle kuin Venäjällekään

Why Ukraine Can't Win an All-Out Military Victory—and Shouldn't Try
http://www.businessweek.com/article...-out-military-victory-and-shouldnt-try#r=read

"The cities retaken over the past few days were relatively small (the largest, Kramatorsk, has a population of 165,000) and lightly defended. Donetsk, the region’s biggest city with some 1 million inhabitants, is still in the hands of rebels. Rooting them out would be a long and brutal process. “They would have to do it street by street,” says Mark Galeotti, a professor of global affairs at New York University. “The cost in body bags would be high.”

Ukraine army still far from victory over rebels in east
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170

Alexander Golts, a military expert and deputy editor of the Russian online newspaper Yezhednevny Zhurnal:

"Nobody has succeeded in defeating paramilitaries who are embedded in a city, virtually turning its residents into a human shield - the Americans did not win such a conflict in Mogadishu, Somalia, nor did the Russians win in the Chechen capital Grozny."

"In such a situation a regular army cannot use its superiority in heavy weapons over rebels - weapons such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and artillery."
 
Maassa maan tavalla! Kapinalliset saivat vangiksi naispuolisen ukrainalisen helikopterilentäjän. Totesivat, että tytöllä on mittava ansiorekisteri ja naiseksi jopa vallan mahtava. Neitokainen ei antanut periksi kuulusteluissa (kidutukselle), joten separatisitistit luovuttivat neitokaisen (siis upseerin) Venäjälle, jossa häntä sopivasti syytetään parin venäläisen toimittajan surmasta. Siis itsenäisen maan virallista uniformua käyttävä upseeri, joka on suorittamassa hänelle annettua tehtävää saa naapurimaassa syytteen paikalla olleiden sellaisten "siviilien" surmasta, joita hän ei edes nähnyt ja ja jotka muistaakseni kuolivat heitiniskun seurauksena. Miten mahtaisivat venäläisen kohdellella omalla maaperällään liikkuvia kapinallisia, jotka ampuvat venäläisiä sotilaita - No, olipa tyhmä kysymys :eek: !!!

PS. Muistan videon kun kyseinen lentäjä oli jäänyt vangiksi. Näytin tämän jutun vaimolleni, joka totesi, etä tuskin Kafkakaan olisi osannut kirjoittaa vastaavaa.

Russian revenge: Ukrainian female officer faces court in Voronezh amid Ukrainian military's success in Donbas
Print version
July 9, 2014, 1:02 p.m. | Ukraine — by Ivan Verstyuk
big.jpg

Nadiya Savchenko, 33, was transferred to prison in Russia's Voronezh after being captured in Luhansk Oblast in June.
© uainfo.org




Ivan Verstyuk


Associate Business Editor


Russia is not doing a very good job lately in hiding its connections with separatists in the Donbas. Nadiya Savchenko, female officer of Ukrainian army's Aydar unit who was captured in Luhansk Oblast on June 17, was transferred to prison in Voronezh, a Russian city not far from the border with Ukraine, reported television news program TSN.

Savchenko is being suspected in the murder of Russian journalists while participating in Ukraine’s antiterrorist operation, though local prosecutors have not come up with an official accusation yet, the senior lieutenant’s Russian lawyer said. However, her younger sister Vira said that the Voronezh court is going to have a first hearing within this case on July 9.

“I was aiming (a gun) at woods where shooting against us was coming from. I have no idea whether I hit anybody or not,” Savchenko said in a June 19 interview with Moscow-based Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. She also called Russian journalists liars who made up a story of her allegedly pointing the sniper gun at media workers.

The Kyiv Post tried to reach Voronezh Oblast prosecutor by phone, but no one answered.

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry in its July 8 official note claims bringing Savchenko to court in Russia to be illegal and demands to allow Ukrainian consul to visit captivated officer in prison. “Openly kidnapping Ukrainian citizens on the territory of our state, Russian authorities not only violate all possible norms of international law, but also basic norms of ethics and morality. Such actions will not be left without an adequate respond from Ukraine and international community,” reads the note.

Veteran of a peacekeeping mission in Iraq whose specialization includes navigating Mi-2 and Su-24 military aircraft, Savchenko went through an interrogation that was videotaped and spread over the Internet by Russian journalists.

Behaving very bravely while being questioned about Ukrainian army’s positions in the east, Savchenko straight-forwardly said that by no reasons she would disclose such information to the enemy. “I gave an oath to the Ukrainian people,” she told a separatist who was surprised to see all the excellent grades for courses of military preparation in her personal file.

“Shoot her. She’s not a woman anymore,” wrote a reader of Komsomolskaya Pravda in the online comments section of the story devoted to Savchenko. “Judging by the way she answers and by her photo, she is a respect-deserving enemy,” replied another one.

Savchenko, whose female sex for a long time would not allow her to enter Kharkiv Air Force University and still keeps from piloting military aircraft, was priced to four captivated separatists by the Kremlin-backed insurgents. But Ukrainian Defense Ministry did not manage to conduct a prisoner exchange – the negotiations ended up with nothing.

In comparison, U.S. exchanged sergeant Bowe Bergdahl for five Taliban members in May after he was held captive in Afghanistan for five years. American army authorities did so despite the fact that Bergdahl before captivation simply walked away of his unit, being disillusioned with the war effort, according to Pentagon investigation.

Thus, no price is too high for Savchenko.

Kyiv Post associate business editor Ivan Verstyuk can be reached at [email protected].

Juuri kun ehdin kaivata lisää romantiikkaa Regina-tyyliseltä propagandalta, tulikin esiin lujatahtoinen ja uber-hyvännäköinen yliluutnantti Savchenko. Katsokaa vaikka itse. Pesee Krimin uuden piirisyyttäjän mennen tullen ja palatessa. Grace under pressure. Nyt minulla on jo kaksi asiaa mitä voin fanittaa Ukrainan rintamailla. P.S. Venäjä tekee nyt itselleen tällä niin karvasta propagandatappiota jo muutenkin surkeassa tilanteessa että vot.

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/...ll-kill-me-all-of-ukraine-is-behind-me-video/

Captured Ukrainian Officer Nadiya Savchenko: “Your Russian authorities will kill me. All of Ukraine is behind me!” [VIDEO]
Posted on June 27, 2014 by tilamuse
06.20.2014
Translated and edited by Voices of Ukraine


Nadiya Savchenko

Senior Lieutenant of the Ukrainian army, Nadiya Savchenko, was captured by terrorists of the “Luhansk People’s Republic.” A video of her interrogation (in Russian/Ukrainian) appeared on the Internet from Censor.NET, citing LigaBusinessInform.

 
Tuolla interpretermag-sitella on uskottavan tuntuinen juttu siitä mikä on se "peli" jota oligarkit tässä taustalla pelaavat jakaakseen Donbassin keskenään.
Strelkovista on tässä tullut rasite, joka ei sovi kuvioon.

Kremlin ‘Grey Cardinal’ Surkov’s Deal for a ‘Donetsk Transdniestria’?
http://www.interpretermag.com/category/blog/

Edit: Ote alusta alla

Boris Rozhin, editor of Golos Sevastopolya and a popular blogger under the name “Colonel Cassad,” published a LiveJournal entry 7 July speculating on the origins of the campaign that has begun to discredit Col. Igor Strelkov, self-declared commander in chief of the “Donetsk People’s Republic.” He traces it to an attempt to orchestrate a scenario arranged by Kremlin “grey cardinal” Vyacheslav Surkov for an end to the armed conflict in southeastern Ukraine by producing something like a “Donetsk Transdniestria” — a region that will remain disputed and a thorn in the side of the new Kiev government.


Yesterday at a press conference in Donetsk
, ultranationalist leftist leader Sergei Kurginyan clashed with leaders of the pro-Russian separatist movement Pavel Gubarev and Igor Bezler, after he denounced Strelkov for fleeing Slavyansk. During the course of the shouting match, which ended with the separatists walking out, Kurginyan stlil managed to outline just how much aid the separatists have received from “civil society” in Russia, even if the weapons were sometimes poor quality — and indicated “more modern” vehicles and artillery were being sent in since 3 July. This was a fact not lost on Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Andriy Lysenko (translation here and below by The Interpreter):

“In particular, yesterday during a press conference in Donetsk, the leaders of the militants confirmed that they receive armored vehicles, artillery systems, antitank, anti-aircraft and small arms from Russia. We have reported this many times. Now the militants themselves have openly admitted it,” he said at a briefing in Kyiv on Wednesday.

As we reported on our Ukrainian Liveblog today, Andriy Parubiy, Chairman of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, also commented on in-fighting among the separatists:

“Mr. Paribuy stated that the source of the tension was that Strelkov had received large amounts of money from the Kremlin and was not appropriately sharing it with the various other leaders. This tension has become highlighted as it seems that Russia may be quietly ignoring please for more help from separatists holed up in Donetsk.”

Paribuy’s sources may ultimately link back to a purported Kremlin-inspiired campaign to discredit Strelkov, but it’s also likely that Moscow keeps the insurgency off balance by channeling aid through multiple leaders.

Rozhin does not explain his sources but a number of Moscow opposition figures have found his blog persuasive. His thesis is that Surkov, together with various Moscow-leaning or at least self-interested oligarchs in the industrial southeast of Ukraine, are in the process of making a deal with Kiev in which Strelkov is in the way.

By moving to Donetsk and assuming leadership of the main separatist warfare there, Strelkov has supposedly become a “wild card” and messed up Surkov’s script. Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s richest man, is really a key figure in this story.

It was clear in April that Akhmetov may be “double dealing” by using the threat of separatism as a bargaining chip with Kiev, even though by May he was calling on pro-Kiev forces to “fight, fight, fight”, as we reported on our Ukrainian Liveblog.

On May 16, Akhmetov organized patrols to keep order from the mayhem instigated by the separatists, but in the end, signed an agreement with the DPR to keep the peace in the steel factories in Mariupol. Now something like that was put into play for Slavyansk.​
 
Viimeksi muokattu:
Tuo "nopean voiton taktiikka"-lääke voi olla Ukrainalle "liian kallis ja maistua hyvin pahalle" ainakin jos on uskominen noita allamainittuja asiantuntijalausuntoja:
- tulee liikaa ruumispusseja
- Ukrainalla ei ole tarvittavia erikoisjoukkoja eikä tuollainen ole onnistunut niidenkään avulla sen paremmin USA:lle kuin Venäjällekään

Why Ukraine Can't Win an All-Out Military Victory—and Shouldn't Try
http://www.businessweek.com/article...-out-military-victory-and-shouldnt-try#r=read

"The cities retaken over the past few days were relatively small (the largest, Kramatorsk, has a population of 165,000) and lightly defended. Donetsk, the region’s biggest city with some 1 million inhabitants, is still in the hands of rebels. Rooting them out would be a long and brutal process. “They would have to do it street by street,” says Mark Galeotti, a professor of global affairs at New York University. “The cost in body bags would be high.”

Ukraine army still far from victory over rebels in east
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170

Alexander Golts, a military expert and deputy editor of the Russian online newspaper Yezhednevny Zhurnal:

"Nobody has succeeded in defeating paramilitaries who are embedded in a city, virtually turning its residents into a human shield - the Americans did not win such a conflict in Mogadishu, Somalia, nor did the Russians win in the Chechen capital Grozny."

"In such a situation a regular army cannot use its superiority in heavy weapons over rebels - weapons such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and artillery."

Jaa-a, mahtaakohan Ukrainan edes tarvita puhdistaa koko kaupunkia?

Mitä taas tulee tuohon väitteeseen "nobody has succeeded in defeating paramilitaries who are embedded in a city", niin muistaakseni jenkit teki sen useampaan otteeseen Irakissa. Falujah, Mosul ja Bagdad ainakin tulee mieleen. Toki teroja tuli vähän väliä lisää, mutta kyllä tuo väite on silti väärässä.
 
Naissotilasikoni on syntynyt. Tuleekohan tästä Amelia Earhart-ilmiö maastopuvulla? Ruma venäläinen. Kaunis ukrainalainen.

 
Putin on pettänyt pahasti lupauksensa, ja onneksi niin. Jää nähtäväksi miten tämä vaikuttaa hänen tulevaisuuteensa Venäjällä jos talous jatkaa syöksykierrettään. Toivottavasti Ukrainalaiset saavat haltuunsa loput Itä-Ukrainasta ilman suurempia siviilitappioita.

Putinhan ei ole koskaan suoraan luvannut lähettää joukkoja Itä-Ukrainaan, kaikki vain olettivat niin Krimin & Georgian kaltaisten tapausten jälkeen: vaikuttaa käyneen juuri niinkuin varoittelin Krimin intervention jälkeen, että ulkovenäläiset nationalistit voivat Putiniltakin herkästi lähteä ns. lapasesta. Putinin oikeat kommentit olivat hiukan monitulkintaisia:

ROMAN KUZNETSOV: Are you planning to send a limited contingent of troops to southeastern Ukraine to protect its Russian-speaking population? Thank you.
VLADIMIR PUTIN: You know, despite the events in Crimea, we should not lose our heads, but should proceed from realities. What are these realities today? First, we must admit that the ethnic composition of Crimea differs from that of southeastern Ukraine. These territories, as I just said, were transferred to Ukraine in the mid-1920s, and in 1954, Crimea was annexed to Ukraine for some reason as well.


The ethnic composition of the population there is approximately 50-50. I have already mentioned that the final decision to return Crimea to the Russian Federation was only based on the results of the referendum. When I saw these results, and saw for myself that almost all residents voted for joining Russia, I repeat, we had no other choice and there could have been no other decision.


As for what is happening in southeastern Ukraine, we don’t know for sure. But we believe that we ought to do everything we can to help these people defend their rights and determine their fate on their own. This is what we will fight for. Let me remind you that the Federation Council of Russia gave the President the right to use the Armed Forces in Ukraine. I very much hope that I will not have to exercise this right and that, through political and diplomatic means, we will be able to resolve all the pressing, if not to say burning, issues in Ukraine.


Kunnon poliitikkona Putin on siis antanut lausuntoja joissa kaikenlaiset ovet jäävät auki. Toiveikkammat/pelokkaimmat toki ovat tulkinneet nuo lihavoidut kohdat niin että panssarien moottorit siellä ottavat jo kierroksia.
 
Naissotilasikoni on syntynyt. Tuleekohan tästä Amelia Earhart-ilmiö maastopuvulla? Ruma venäläinen. Kaunis ukrainalainen.


Ihan oikeasti tämä militantti lentooperaattori ampuu ihan tyynesti sinut hekosta jos se vaan pääsis sen tekemään. Sinänsä hyvä kysmys olisi siinä että mitä ihmettä tämä maavoimissa teki? Ja lento-operaattorit ovat yleensä lentosotamiehiä.
 
Ihan oikeasti tämä militantti lentooperaattori ampuu ihan tyynesti sinut hekosta jos se vaan pääsis sen tekemään. Sinänsä hyvä kysmys olisi siinä että mitä ihmettä tämä maavoimissa teki? Ja lento-operaattorit ovat yleensä lentosotamiehiä.

Tietenkin se ampuisi. Mutta se tekisi sen hellästi. Nadja vaan on semmoinen. Ei sille voi suuttua :D Se oli Aidar:in mukana jakamassa haavoittuneille ensisiteitä, suffelia ja pepsiä (ehkä muutaman heittolaukauksen heitti vihollisen yleiseen suuntaan), kunnes ilkeä venäläinen tuli, nappasi sen, veti huivin silmille ja alkoi syyttämään snaiperiksi. :eek:
 
Ihan oikeasti tämä militantti lentooperaattori ampuu ihan tyynesti sinut hekosta jos se vaan pääsis sen tekemään. Sinänsä hyvä kysmys olisi siinä että mitä ihmettä tämä maavoimissa teki? Ja lento-operaattorit ovat yleensä lentosotamiehiä.
Lento-operaattori? Tarkoitatko lentoyhtiötä? Eli lentosotamiehet lentävät lento-operaatorille? Vai oliko se päinvastoin...?



 
Tietenkin se ampuisi. Mutta se tekisi sen hellästi. Nadja vaan on semmoinen. Ei sille voi suuttua :D Se oli Aidar:in mukana jakamassa haavoittuneille ensisiteitä, suffelia ja pepsiä (ehkä muutaman heittolaukauksen heitti vihollisen yleiseen suuntaan), kunnes ilkeä venäläinen tuli, nappasi sen, veti huivin silmille ja alkoi syyttämään snaiperiksi. :eek:

Niin, tuskin neitokainen mikään Lotta svärd on, mutta mielenkiintoisia ovat nuo syytteetkin (The Moscow Times):

"Russian journalists Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin of VGTRK were killed by shelling in Luhansk on June 17.


On Wednesday, Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin announced that Nadezhda Savchenko, a 33-year-old Ukrainian army officer, was believed by authorities to have provided crucial information that led to the journalists' demise."


Eli oli antanut tietoa, joka johti kranaatti-iskuun juuri kun kyseiset "journalistit sattuivat olemaan kapinallisten keskellä o_O ?

Tämän periaatteen mukaan jokainen "vihollissotilas" tullaan tuomitsemaan murhasta jos ei älyä antautua ajoissa. Tätä asiaa en tunne lähemmin, mutta kun tuossa aiemmin käytiin keskustelua siitä kuka on sotilas, palkkasotilas tai terroristi. Venäläisen tulkinnen mukaan näillä ei sitten liene eroa, riittää että on vastapuolella. Hulluinta tässä on, että tapahtumat sijoittuivat Ukrainan maaperälle, jossa laillinen valta käy taistelua kapinallisia vastaa. Toisaalta, onhan Venäjä asettamassa syytteeseen murhista myös Ukrainan sisäministerin ja joukon muita päättäjiä, joten oikeuslaitoksella riittää töitä.
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_JOURNALISTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

"The investigators said Savchenko was a Ukrainian officer but she went on leave earlier this summer to join a voluntary battalion."

Mielenkiintoista että kantahenkilökuntaan kuuluva lähtee palveluksesta ja liittyy vapaaehtoispataljoonaan ja vielä maavoimiin. Toisaalta kyllä siellä on MI hekoja joten tarvitaan henkilöitä jotka tuntevat helikopterit.

Tarkoitan lento-operaattorilla lähinnä helikopterissa olevaa ampujaa.
 
Mielenkiintoista että kantahenkilökuntaan kuuluva lähtee palveluksesta ja liittyy vapaaehtoispataljoonaan ja vielä maavoimiin. Toisaalta kyllä siellä on MI hekoja joten tarvitaan henkilöitä jotka tuntevat helikopterit.

Tarkoitan lento-operaattorilla lähinnä helikopterissa olevaa ampujaa.

OK

Lento-operaattori=helikopterissa ampujana oleva lentosotamies
 
Niin, tuskin neitokainen mikään Lotta svärd on, mutta mielenkiintoisia ovat nuo syytteetkin (The Moscow Times):

"Russian journalists Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin of VGTRK were killed by shelling in Luhansk on June 17.


On Wednesday, Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin announced that Nadezhda Savchenko, a 33-year-old Ukrainian army officer, was believed by authorities to have provided crucial information that led to the journalists' demise."


Eli oli antanut tietoa, joka johti kranaatti-iskuun juuri kun kyseiset "journalistit sattuivat olemaan kapinallisten keskellä o_O ?

Tämän periaatteen mukaan jokainen "vihollissotilas" tullaan tuomitsemaan murhasta jos ei älyä antautua ajoissa. Tätä asiaa en tunne lähemmin, mutta kun tuossa aiemmin käytiin keskustelua siitä kuka on sotilas, palkkasotilas tai terroristi. Venäläisen tulkinnen mukaan näillä ei sitten liene eroa, riittää että on vastapuolella. Hulluinta tässä on, että tapahtumat sijoittuivat Ukrainan maaperälle, jossa laillinen valta käy taistelua kapinallisia vastaa. Toisaalta, onhan Venäjä asettamassa syytteeseen murhista myös Ukrainan sisäministerin ja joukon muita päättäjiä, joten oikeuslaitoksella riittää töitä.

Tuon oikeuslaitoksen voinee tuossa laittaa lainausmerkkeihin eli Venäjällä ei ole riippumatonta oikeuslaitosta kuten se Lännessä käsitetään.

Se mitä tällä pyritään saamaan aikaiseksi on vaikeaa käsittää, ehkä se on vain sisäpoliittisesti "tarpeellista". Jokatapauksessa Lännessähän tämä johtaa propagandatappioon.
Ehkä tarkoituksena on hajoittaa Ukrainan johdon huomiota ja sitä kautta "pistää kapuloita rattaisiin", tai käyttää kaikki konstit joilla voidaan tinkiä myönnytyksiä, mene ja tiedä.
 
Jaa-a, mahtaakohan Ukrainan edes tarvita puhdistaa koko kaupunkia?

Mitä taas tulee tuohon väitteeseen "nobody has succeeded in defeating paramilitaries who are embedded in a city", niin muistaakseni jenkit teki sen useampaan otteeseen Irakissa. Falujah, Mosul ja Bagdad ainakin tulee mieleen. Toki teroja tuli vähän väliä lisää, mutta kyllä tuo väite on silti väärässä.

Arvelen että tuossa tarkoitettiin sitä että sillä aseistuksella joka Ukrainalla on, siinä käy helposti samalla tavalla kuin Venäjälle Groznyssä, eli kaupunki pitää pommittaa "maan tasalle".
Tämä taas ei ole hyväksyttävää kenellekään ja vähiten Venäjälle, joka sitten joutuisi lähettämään "rauhanturvaajansa" paikalle, mistä seuraisi "kolmannen asteen" sanktiot.
Viimemainittua taas ei halua kukaan.

Tästä päästääkin kätevästi tuohon edellä mainittuun Surkovin suunnitelmaan, jossa oligarkit sopivat asiat keskenään. Sehän sopii kaikille asianosaisille (Ukrainan kansalta ei kysytä).

Laitan tähän vielä muutaman lainauksen tuosta Interpret-siten jutusta, on se senverran mielenkiintoinen:

"Strelkov then is in the way of Akhmetov’s deal-making, but he with “his right-wing monarchist views,” says Rozhin, he has had the support of nationalists and semi-fascist types in Moscow like Yegor Prosvirin, “accepting aid from anyone who will give it, without particular discretion on principle.”

“Surkov and Co. do not need a right-wing Novorossiya, with a nationalist taint, which some figures are trying to lend to the image of Strelkov, who openly supports Putin and has not advanced any projects of a state name for himself, although this intention of seizing Rostov and marching on Moscow has been ascribed to him – total and obvious nonsense.

People like Surkov find people like Akhmetov, Medvedchuk, Tsarev much more kindred, which in the event of the creation of a ‘Donetsk Transdnestria’ will be delegated local authority. Leaders from the people, like Mozgovoy or Gubarev will hardly be allowed to make key decisions – such people frighten those who have grown accustomed to ‘resolving’ everything in a close circle of ‘their own people.’”

Rozhin believes Strelkov will be targeted for assassination, just as Bolotov and Mozgovoy have been as well as Gubarev because they represent the “real” DPR where oligarchs like Akhmetov and Medvedchuk do not have a role."

Saapas nähdä miten tuossa käy ?
 
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