Joo, selvä juttu. Pohjatyöt päätökselle tehdään kuitenkin jo nyt. Vielähän sen voi seuraava toki munia, mutta nyt pitää tehdä asioita oikein ettei ala kyllösmerjojen säästölinjat 18-36 kpl saavuttaa suosiota.
Ilmavoimien tulevaisuus
- Viestiketjun aloittaja Museo
- Aloitus PVM
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- Tagit
- ilmavoimat tulevaisuus
J. Niinistöllä voi olla hyvinkin pitkälle ulottuva käsi HX-hankintaan mikäli hän pääsee vaikuttamaan hankintakriteereihin ja eri osa-alueiden painotuksiin ja pisteytykseen, olettaen että niitä ei muuteta suuresti jälkeenpäin. Jo pelkkä RFI-tieto yhdistettynä muuhun epäviralliseen tietämykseen käytännössä johtaa tilanteeseen, missä puolustusvoimat tietää jo nyt top2 tai vähintään top3 kandidaadit. Haasteena on ylläpitää tasapainoa, missä ennakkosuosikit pidetään piilossa ja samanaikaisesti tiedottaa ulospäin julkisesti tosiasiallisia hankintaperusteita, niin että kansalaiset ja kansanedustajat eivät ole ihan halolla päähän lyötyjä kun voittaja julistetaan.
Näihin asioihin ei ehdokas Kyllösen, presidentti Kyllösen tai edes presidentti Niinistön mielipiteet onneksi paljoa vaikuta vaan korvaajahankinta on mittava prosessi johon vetää puuleimansa moni eri taho eduskunnasta erinäisiin viranomaisiin.
Siinä mielessä olen kyllä tuosta määrästä samaa mieltä että lukua voisi tiputtaa n. 48-52 luokille hornetkauppojen 64-määrästä. Niiden poisjäävien koneiden hinnalla voisi kohtalaisen helposti ostaa vaikka viitisensataa stingeriä varastoon, uuden patteri raketinheittimiä ja niille mittava määrä erinäisiä siroteammuksia sekä n. 40kpl nasamseja & kevan tai pari lisää
Siinä on kuule sellainen riski, että mitä ei oteta ei ole jaossa mihinkään muuhun käyttöön. Nimimerkillä poliittisia intohimoja herättävä erillisrahoitus.
Lähinnä fantasiaahan tuo joulupukki-toivelista on, mutta sinänsä periaatteessa olen samaa mieltä ehdokas Kyllösen kanssa siitä että pienempi määräkin riittäisi. Mielipiteet eroavat sitten siinä kuinka monta pitäisi nykymäärästä vähentää (~48 vs 16) ja mitä niillä korvaavilla rahoilla pitäisi tehdä (yleinen panostus puolustusvoimiin vs. vaikka kokemusasiantuntijoiden määrän tuplaaminen). Jos F-35 koneita saadaan sillä hinnalla mitä LM niitä lupailee (muistaakseni tavoitteena saada siitä hieman esim. typhoonia halvempi), ei 1:1 korvaussuhdekkaan kyllä pahalta kuulosta. Oli tuo luku sitten hornettien 64 tai 48, tarkoittaa se joka tapauksessa sitä että pohjolasta löytyisi v. 2030 noin 100-150 F-35 konetta ja noin viitisenkymmentä gripeniä. noilla luvuilla vrt. todennäköisimmän hyökkääjän ilma-aseen nykyinen/ennustettu kehitys tarkoittaisi huomattavaa voimasuhteiden lähenemistä itämeren ympäristössä.
Gyllis1
Respected Leader
Kommareiden mallissa sitä "säästyvää" rahaa ei 100% varmasti käytettäisi mihinkään puolustusvoimiin liittyvään. Pidetään nyt vaan kiinni siitä yli 60:stä koneesta.
Ps. Tavoitteena saada siitä F-35:sta hieman Gripeniä halvempi. Typhoonia halvempi se taitaa jo olla.
On kyllä aikamoinen yllätys, jos tuleva kone on jotain muuta kuin F-35. Sen verran kovat speksit on lyödä pöytään vaikka kallis peli onkin lentää, ainakin vielä tässä vaiheessa. Gripen on varmaan lähin haastaja, muihin on todella vaikea uskoa, yksikään ei omaa sellaisia ominaisuuksia joilla kilpailisi selkeästi F-35 tai Gripeniä vastaan.
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/harjit-sajjan-announces-a-new-defence-policy-full-speech/
Kanadan nykyinen hallitus tähtää 88:aan uuteen hävittäjään, edellinen pro F-35 hallitus tähtäsi 65:een koneeseen. Tämäkin haiskahtaa keinolta heikentää F-35:n mahdollisuuksia.
Myös termi "advanced fighter jets" eroaa täysin useista Eurooppalaisista maista, joissa puhutaan 5.sukupolven koneista tai seuraavan sukupolven koneista hankinnan yhteydessä.
Kanadan nykyinen hallitus tähtää 88:aan uuteen hävittäjään, edellinen pro F-35 hallitus tähtäsi 65:een koneeseen. Tämäkin haiskahtaa keinolta heikentää F-35:n mahdollisuuksia.
Myös termi "advanced fighter jets" eroaa täysin useista Eurooppalaisista maista, joissa puhutaan 5.sukupolven koneista tai seuraavan sukupolven koneista hankinnan yhteydessä.
Viimeksi muokattu:
https://www.total-croatia-news.com/...-f-16-top-candidates-for-new-fighter-aircraft
Israelin vanhat F-16 koneet ovat ennakkosuosikkina Kroatiassa halvimman hinnan muodossa.
"Although the Swedes have apparently heard a rumour that the Israeli offer is much cheaper, they have not given up. On the contrary, they even intensified their lobbying efforts. They also probably heard that the Defence Ministry was shocked when the bids were opened since they expected a much lower price. The problem is that Croatia expected that this offer would be close to the ones submitted over the past ten years. However, since the Defence Ministry has made a major change to the tender as it is now looking for “multipurpose” and not just air policing aircraft, it was clear that this would significantly increase the price."
Israelin vanhat F-16 koneet ovat ennakkosuosikkina Kroatiassa halvimman hinnan muodossa.
"Although the Swedes have apparently heard a rumour that the Israeli offer is much cheaper, they have not given up. On the contrary, they even intensified their lobbying efforts. They also probably heard that the Defence Ministry was shocked when the bids were opened since they expected a much lower price. The problem is that Croatia expected that this offer would be close to the ones submitted over the past ten years. However, since the Defence Ministry has made a major change to the tender as it is now looking for “multipurpose” and not just air policing aircraft, it was clear that this would significantly increase the price."
http://aviationweek.com/defense/russian-fighters-test-us-boundaries-skies-over-syria
Ilmatilan realimaailmaa Lähi-Idässä, lukiessa tuli dejavu-tunne, koska juuri tämän tyylistä tilannetta Pierre Sprey kuvasi aikoja sitten, koneet pitää tunnistaa läheltä. F-22 lentäjä itsekin ilmaisee epäsuorasti, että heidät on koulutettu BVR-taisteluun, ei niinkään näihin tupatansseihin. Tietysti sitten "kuumassa tilanteessa", ammuttaisiin enemmän(ja kauempaa) ja kyseltäisiin vähemmän, mutta tämä nyt kuitenkin on vallitseva päivittäinen operatiivinen tilanne, jossa lentäjät ja koneet ovat, sormet liipaisimella.
Ilmatilan realimaailmaa Lähi-Idässä, lukiessa tuli dejavu-tunne, koska juuri tämän tyylistä tilannetta Pierre Sprey kuvasi aikoja sitten, koneet pitää tunnistaa läheltä. F-22 lentäjä itsekin ilmaisee epäsuorasti, että heidät on koulutettu BVR-taisteluun, ei niinkään näihin tupatansseihin. Tietysti sitten "kuumassa tilanteessa", ammuttaisiin enemmän(ja kauempaa) ja kyseltäisiin vähemmän, mutta tämä nyt kuitenkin on vallitseva päivittäinen operatiivinen tilanne, jossa lentäjät ja koneet ovat, sormet liipaisimella.
As Islamic State militants lose ground in Iraq and Syria, U.S. fighter pilots are seeing increasingly alarming behavior from Russian aircraft flying over the battlespace.
Lt. Col. “Ox,” a U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor pilot and commander of the 95th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron assigned to Al Dhafra air base, UAE, said his pilots see unexpected, potentially threatening movement from Russian fighters flying over Iraq and Syria with growing regularity. The pilots have had numerous close calls in the past few weeks, with Russian aircraft frequently flying within weapons range of coalition ground troops, Ox said.
The Russians fighters—primarily Sukhoi Su-30s, Su-35s, Su-27 Flankers and Su-17 Fitters—have not made moves to attack U.S. or coalition forces, but their proximity to the ground troops is threatening, said Ox, who requested partial anonymity to discuss sensitive operations. Russian fighters regularly fly within range of coalition ground forces for twenty or thirty minutes at a time, he added.
For Ox and his pilots, it’s often tough to tell whether the Russian aircraft are deliberately testing their boundaries, or if such events are just honest mistakes. But as ground forces squeeze ISIS into a smaller and smaller area, these “uncomfortable” incidents are becoming more frequent, he said.
“We have to use our judgment to figure out, is this somebody getting close to attack our guys? Or is this somebody that is just flying a wide pattern?” Ox said. “You don’t know if they are doing this to test us, to see what our response is, or if it’s completely innocent. That’s the call that we have to make every day.”
Responding to these incidents is made even more challenging by the increasingly congested airspace, Ox said. The Raptor pilots must very quickly deconflict coalition forces in the area to make sure they have enough space to monitor the Russians and run interference if need be.
Potentially threatening aircraft are often close enough to see visually, but the busy airspace makes identifying their type and allegiance a challenge, Ox said. This is particularly difficult at night because the Raptors do not have the advanced electro-optical/infrared capability integrated into the F-35 or fourth-generation fighters via external pod.
“It’s so crowded, the typical employment game plans, tactics that we use are happening at much longer ranges than the current fight,” Ox said. “It really accelerates our timelines and puts us into very short decision times, especially as those platforms we are trying to identify get closer and closer to our defending point.”
Once the Raptors have verified that the aircraft are non-coalition, the pilots must relay what they are seeing to tactical control, such as the airborne E-3 Sentry and the ground-based Combined Air Operations Center, coalition aircraft and ground troops. It is their responsibility to move the other aircraft in the area out of harm’s way in case a confrontation occurs, Ox said.
In this defensive counterair (DCA) role, the main advantage the Raptor brings is its advanced sensor suite and fusion capability. But where the F-15 Strike Eagles performing DCA in the region are able to send and receive critical battlefield information over Link 16, the tactical data link used by most Air Force aircraft, the F-22s do not have full Link 16 capability. This means the Raptors can receive data and imagery from other aircraft in the battlespace over Link 16, but cannot send the advanced picture the fifth-generation aircraft generates to the rest of the force.
Instead, the F-22 pilots must rely on traditional voice communication to describe what they are seeing, Ox said.
Once the air pace around the threatening aircraft is deconflicted, it becomes a waiting game. The Raptors are closely monitoring the Russian fighters for any sign of aggressive behavior, and are ready to act at the slightest hint of a confrontation.
The U.S. pilots sometimes ping the Russian aircraft over the emergency Guard frequency, but usually do not get a response.
“I couldn’t tell if they are monitoring Guard like we are, I couldn’t tell you if maybe they are hearing it and not responding,” Ox said.
One factor that limits the Raptors’ ability to effectively monitor the Russian fighters is lack of a helmet-mounted cueing system, which equips many other fighters such as the F-35. Such a capability would make DCA operations more effective, particularly in congested airspace, Ox noted. In current operations, Raptor pilots lose time looking back and forth between the visual airspace and the information on the displays.
“It’s just that extra step, and now I’m having to look back outside and find this guy, and a lot of times I’m just looking where I last saw him instead of looking with the helmet and actually having some symbology that shows me exactly where he is,” Ox said. “It would be great to be able to keep our eye on the guy that you are watching and having all that information that is already known to the jet be presented to you.”
Since Ox’s squadron arrived at Al Dhafra at the end of September, they have not had to run interference, which would likely involve buzzing non-coalition aircraft. But a few recent instances have been “right on the edge,” Ox said.
“We don’t typically do those headbutt-type operations very often… but we’ve been close as of late,” Ox said.
Lt. Col. “Ox,” a U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor pilot and commander of the 95th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron assigned to Al Dhafra air base, UAE, said his pilots see unexpected, potentially threatening movement from Russian fighters flying over Iraq and Syria with growing regularity. The pilots have had numerous close calls in the past few weeks, with Russian aircraft frequently flying within weapons range of coalition ground troops, Ox said.
The Russians fighters—primarily Sukhoi Su-30s, Su-35s, Su-27 Flankers and Su-17 Fitters—have not made moves to attack U.S. or coalition forces, but their proximity to the ground troops is threatening, said Ox, who requested partial anonymity to discuss sensitive operations. Russian fighters regularly fly within range of coalition ground forces for twenty or thirty minutes at a time, he added.
For Ox and his pilots, it’s often tough to tell whether the Russian aircraft are deliberately testing their boundaries, or if such events are just honest mistakes. But as ground forces squeeze ISIS into a smaller and smaller area, these “uncomfortable” incidents are becoming more frequent, he said.
“We have to use our judgment to figure out, is this somebody getting close to attack our guys? Or is this somebody that is just flying a wide pattern?” Ox said. “You don’t know if they are doing this to test us, to see what our response is, or if it’s completely innocent. That’s the call that we have to make every day.”
Responding to these incidents is made even more challenging by the increasingly congested airspace, Ox said. The Raptor pilots must very quickly deconflict coalition forces in the area to make sure they have enough space to monitor the Russians and run interference if need be.
Potentially threatening aircraft are often close enough to see visually, but the busy airspace makes identifying their type and allegiance a challenge, Ox said. This is particularly difficult at night because the Raptors do not have the advanced electro-optical/infrared capability integrated into the F-35 or fourth-generation fighters via external pod.
“It’s so crowded, the typical employment game plans, tactics that we use are happening at much longer ranges than the current fight,” Ox said. “It really accelerates our timelines and puts us into very short decision times, especially as those platforms we are trying to identify get closer and closer to our defending point.”
Once the Raptors have verified that the aircraft are non-coalition, the pilots must relay what they are seeing to tactical control, such as the airborne E-3 Sentry and the ground-based Combined Air Operations Center, coalition aircraft and ground troops. It is their responsibility to move the other aircraft in the area out of harm’s way in case a confrontation occurs, Ox said.
In this defensive counterair (DCA) role, the main advantage the Raptor brings is its advanced sensor suite and fusion capability. But where the F-15 Strike Eagles performing DCA in the region are able to send and receive critical battlefield information over Link 16, the tactical data link used by most Air Force aircraft, the F-22s do not have full Link 16 capability. This means the Raptors can receive data and imagery from other aircraft in the battlespace over Link 16, but cannot send the advanced picture the fifth-generation aircraft generates to the rest of the force.
Instead, the F-22 pilots must rely on traditional voice communication to describe what they are seeing, Ox said.
Once the air pace around the threatening aircraft is deconflicted, it becomes a waiting game. The Raptors are closely monitoring the Russian fighters for any sign of aggressive behavior, and are ready to act at the slightest hint of a confrontation.
The U.S. pilots sometimes ping the Russian aircraft over the emergency Guard frequency, but usually do not get a response.
“I couldn’t tell if they are monitoring Guard like we are, I couldn’t tell you if maybe they are hearing it and not responding,” Ox said.
One factor that limits the Raptors’ ability to effectively monitor the Russian fighters is lack of a helmet-mounted cueing system, which equips many other fighters such as the F-35. Such a capability would make DCA operations more effective, particularly in congested airspace, Ox noted. In current operations, Raptor pilots lose time looking back and forth between the visual airspace and the information on the displays.
“It’s just that extra step, and now I’m having to look back outside and find this guy, and a lot of times I’m just looking where I last saw him instead of looking with the helmet and actually having some symbology that shows me exactly where he is,” Ox said. “It would be great to be able to keep our eye on the guy that you are watching and having all that information that is already known to the jet be presented to you.”
Since Ox’s squadron arrived at Al Dhafra at the end of September, they have not had to run interference, which would likely involve buzzing non-coalition aircraft. But a few recent instances have been “right on the edge,” Ox said.
“We don’t typically do those headbutt-type operations very often… but we’ve been close as of late,” Ox said.
Gyllis1
Respected Leader
Eiköhän noissa Raptor-yksiköissä tupatansseja varten ole harjoiteltu siinä missä muuallakin. Mutta tilanteeseen jossa samassa ilmatilassa operoidaan kahden eri toimijan kanssa, ja joista kumpi vaan voi hetken varoituksella muuttua neutraalista viholliseksi, ei varmasti ole osattu harjoitella tai varautua. Tuskin tuollaista paljon muuallakaan treenataan.
Huhta
Greatest Leader
Kuulostaa erikoiselta. Israel on lentänyt vanhoilla koneillaan Luoja ties kuinka kauan. Halpoja ne voivat olla, mutta en ihmettelisi, jos koneet menisivät uusiksi 5-10 vuoden päästä... Onko se sitten halpaa?
ak.tied
Greatest Leader
Että puoli vuotta rapsutellaan ennen laukaisua. Onhan erikoista. Vetkuttelun makua..
Viimeksi muokattu:
BarrelNut
Kenraali
Noh, maailmalla on tilanne kiristynyt Pohjois-Korean vuoksi, voi olla että se on vaikuttanut asetestien priorisointeihin ja skedulointeihin tuolla ampuma-alueella...
Siviili-toimittaja pohdiskelee, että jos ostettaisiinkin osalla rahoista IT-ohjuksia.
Voisiko tulevasta hävittäjäkaupasta säästää miljardin puolustuksesta tinkimättä?
Suomi joutuu harkitsemaan Patriot-ohjusten hankintaa.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9943130
Voisiko tulevasta hävittäjäkaupasta säästää miljardin puolustuksesta tinkimättä?
Suomi joutuu harkitsemaan Patriot-ohjusten hankintaa.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9943130
tulikomento
Supreme Leader
Mikä yllätys. Ahti Lappia haastateltu ilmatorjunta-asiantuntijana. Uutinen tiivistetysti: F-35 on roskaa (vaikkei sitä suoraan mainita nimeltä). It-ohjuksilla voidaan suorittaa kaikki samat tehtävät kuin hävittäjilläkin. Ja toki myös Venäjän ihmeaseet, kaiken kattavat ja peittävät ilmatorjuntaohjukset muistetaan mainita.
Voihan siitä säästää vaikka koko summan. Sen kuin jättää vehkeet ostamatta. Siitä vain on seuraamuksia.
