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Tämän mukaan alkujaan tanskalaisten tarkoitus oli hankkia M270A1.
Toki kun ne ampumiseen tarvittavat rensselit on poistettu niin se ei meitä erityisemmin auttaisi.
http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m270.htm

Eivätkä tanskalaiset ilmeisesti koskaan edes saaneet tuota päivitettyä mallia? Ainakin alkuun heittimet toimitettiin vanhana mallina, ja Wikisijän mukaan M270A1 on vuodelta 2005, kun taas tanskalaiset olivat tehneet luopumispäätöksen jo 2004.
 
Olen samaa mieltä, että toimintakuntoisten raskaiden raketinheittimien lipuminen maahan ilman mitään vihiä julkisissa tietolähteissä on hyvin epäuskottavaa. Lisäksi niitä on muka vielä enemmän kuin mitä norjan romut ja 22 tiettyä toimintakuntoista tekee yhteensä?!?

Norjan romut? Excuse me Sir, Tanskan romut. :cool:

Mutta ei minua haittaisi, jos nuo norjalaisetkin romut haalittaisiin talteen. Muistelen joskus lukeneeni, että ne olisivat menneet suoraan koipussiin tehtaan hihnalta, mutta tiedä sitten. Jos tykistölle alettaisiin tehdä suurhankintoja, niin GLMRS-raketteja miljardilla ja sitten vielä jokunen päivitetty heitin lisää, kiitos. :uzi:
 
Kyllä tällainen sijoitettu reserviläinen toivoisi kertauskutsua opiskelemaan K9:siä ensi vuosikymmenellä, mutta haaveeksi taitaa jäädä.
 
Edelleen, eikö toimintakuntoisten heitinten hankintojen pitäisi näkyä vientiluvissa tai jossakin julkisissa papereissa?

Luulisi näkyvän. Jos kuitenkin on ostettu vaikkapa 2kpl niin tuollainen varmaan voisi mennä ohi.

En itsekään tuohon usko mutta JOS 41kpl on oikea kokonaismäärä niin jotain olisi tullut myös muualta kuin Hollannista ja Tanskasta. Ja tuo 5-10kpl olisi mennyt ohi rekisterien pitäjiltä. Pitäisin ensisijaisena vaihtoehtona että Norjan romut on dumpattu Suomeen. Toinen vaihtoehto on sitten pieni täydennyserä USA:sta. Olennainen asia lienee joka tapauksessa se ettei ole mitään syytä olettaa sotavalmiita ( pl. a-tarvikkeet ) heittimiä olevan kuin se 3 patteria. Muu kalusto on olemassa ainoastaan parhaiden säästämiseksi.
 
En itsekään tuohon usko mutta JOS 41kpl on oikea kokonaismäärä niin jotain olisi tullut myös muualta kuin Hollannista ja Tanskasta. Ja tuo 5-10kpl olisi mennyt ohi rekisterien pitäjiltä. Pitäisin ensisijaisena vaihtoehtona että Norjan romut on dumpattu Suomeen. Toinen vaihtoehto on sitten pieni täydennyserä USA:sta. Olennainen asia lienee joka tapauksessa se ettei ole mitään syytä olettaa sotavalmiita ( pl. a-tarvikkeet ) heittimiä olevan kuin se 3 patteria. Muu kalusto on olemassa ainoastaan parhaiden säästämiseksi.

Muuten hyvä teoria, mutta "Norjan romuja" on Wikipedian mukaan 12 heitintä. Eli Tanska+Norja+Hollanti menee jo ylitse 41 heittimestä. Tai voihan se olla, että osa on purettu osiksi tai palanut, ja jäljellä on 41 jokseenkin kokonaista.
 
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Kiitos. Juuri tällaista pohtivaa analyysia kysymykselläni heittimien määrästä hainkin.
 
Muuten hyvä teoria, mutta "Norjan romuja" on Wikipedian mukaan 12 heitintä. Eli Tanska+Norja+Hollanti menee jo ylitse 41 heittimestä. Tai voihan se olla, että osa on purettu osiksi tai palanut, ja jäljellä on 41 jokseenkin kokonaista.

Vaikka kaikki vaihtoehdot ovat lähtökohtaisesti lähes mahdottomia niin jostainhan ne lisäkappaleet on kuitenkin saatu. Siis JOS...
 
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Ei ole esittää lähdettä, mutta käsittääkseni näin ei suinkaan ole.

Ok. Wikisijä kertoo, että "never entered active service. In storage". Sieltä minäkin sen kai olin lukenut, että ei ole esittää varsinaista lähdettä meikäläiselläkään. :oops:


Kuva on vuodelta 2007. Toki osoittaa, että niillä on joskus ammuttu, mutta kenties heittimet eivät koskaan tulleet aktiivipalvelukseen? Sotkun sivuilta tosin löytyi jopa sen suuntaista, että heittimiin panostettaisiin... mutta tiedä sitten.
 
Ylivoimainen pääosa kalustosta todennäköisesti maata lösöttää luolastossa. Osa pyörinee kentällä ja ainakin tulenjohto- ym. asioita ovat hinkanneet "koko ajan". Mutta tiedäpä nyt varmasti sitten.
 
Täällä mainitaan arvattavia syitä Norjan "koipalloistamiselle".
https://milforum.net/archive/index.php/t-58605.html

Eli ettei ollut kunnon ampumatarviketta eikä päivitykset älyammuksiin kiinnostaneet. Kun massa-armeijan uhka pieneni, MLRS näytti liian kalliilta ylläpitää.

Rypälekieltoa on syyttäminen yli 10 vuoden takapakista/junnauksesta.

Piffi tässä:
The purchase of MLRS was part of the big ideas of mobilization army, and especially 6. dvisjon, as the Army had in the 90s, before they fell to the ground in the 2000s.

After the cold war ended in 1995 mobilization army significantly reduced in number by removing most departments in Southern and Central Norway (except a brigade in southern Norway and in Trøndelag), when you said it no longer existed any invasion threat there, while you actually wanted to rearm in northern Norway, as one could not ignore the fact that Russia sometime in the future would be able to get willingness to invade Norway, but then would only have their attacks (at drop in major bond) Northern Norway. Officially it was said that we should have a defense against invasion of northern Norway and a defense against limited threats Trondelag (especially to defend Trondelag as a bridgehead for the insertion of US Marines) and Southern Norway.

During the Cold War had always been Brigades operative unit, each brigade was in 5000 - 5500 man and contained all the tactical and administrative support units were needed. Supplies would be collected from almost semi mobile supply station (higher level) of each brigade. Man had, especially in Troms with 6th Division, a structure of brigades, which could field guide and coordinate operations with several brigades, but it was in practice only a mobile headquarters leading independent brigades (and some artillery battalions that could be used for additional support), in particular was brigades independent logistics side.

One could say someone in the Army lost abdominal goal, one would introduce division (with 15,000 to 18,000 man) as a truly operative unit that was much more coordinated in terms of tactical and administrative support units, such as the great powers had (the slightly comical is that f. excl. USA largely has now gone from having division as the operational unit to have the brigade as it).

In the US Army earlier would example. a mechanized division have three brigade staffs, a number stridsvogn- and mechanized battalions (eg. 3 tank battalions and 6 mek. inf. battalions) an artillery regiment and other support agencies. Brigades would be totally flexible, in some cases, could operate with a clean tank brigade with every tank battalions, and two pure infantry brigades, or you could have three equal brigades, each with a tank battalion and two infantry battalions. There was no real sense of belonging to each brigade, it was decided by the vice president under the circumstances (terrain and enemy). Support departments would also be allocated to brigades as needed.

It was something like the Army would build up 6th Division in Troms in the late 90s. One would have three "tactical brigades" each consisting of management apparatus and three maneuver battalions. All support departments were the starting point centralized under division that distributed as required on brigades. Central under divisional management one should have an artillery regiment. This would have three 155 mm artillery battalions (each with 24 guns), each of which normally would support one of the three brigades, and a central resource, MLRS battalion, with two batteries, each with 6 MLRS. These 12 pieces MLRS was delivered 1997/1998, and cost 2.8 billion.

Besides training ammunition was (as far as I've read, it it is wrong) the only ammunition Norway acquired the German AT2, and in much smaller quantity than was believed one needed. There is a special antitank ammunition, every rocket spread out over a smaller area 28 tank mines, allowing a volley from a trolley thus spreading a minefield with 336 tank mines or a battery of six carriages 2016 pcs. (Shaped charge against the bottom of the bonnet Cart fired by an "antenna" that sticks up when it hit the bottom of a tank, and also of the magnetic field when a tank passes over, it will self-destruct after a preset time (maximum four days) ). MLRS in Norwegian service was thus intended primarily to stop the massive onslaught of enemy armor by immediately adding minefields 2000 tank mines in front of the enemy forces, the distance up to 39 km. Other possible munitions that could be interesting was the time of "cluster type" with great political resistance (and notoriously prohibited by treaty after 2008). In fact, there has been some resistance to AT2, in that it can be triggered also by upansrede vehicle and possible barriers zones butting with them, so it's a bit uncertain whether it can be regarded as a pure tank mine. Italy has destroyed its inventory of AT2 mines of political / ethical reasons.

In 2004, after the 6 years operational use was MLRS decommissioned (carts were stored in "mothballed") and it has not since been trained crews on them. I do not know if they ever stored under good conditions (something at least I've heard rumors), or if they are scrapped or sold.

The main reason why MLRS was decommissioned was well that 6th Division, and the whole idea that the Norwegian army would fight in Division staggered, fell to the ground like a rock in the early 2000s. The main thing was that Norway decided that Russia (I do not know if Russia has decided it, but it is certainly the conviction in the Norwegian political and military defense leadership that it will never happen) never ever (at least in any foreseeable future) will come before Troms with hundreds of tanks through Finland or at all try to invade Norway with other than small forces. Moreover, the price of equipment to equip a division much higher compared to the available money for land defense than they had imagined. After September 9, 2001, is no longer the enemy close to us, but far away, and to beat them with small professional forces on the other side of the globe. Apart from a mob-brigade were all mob departments of the Army brought down, and the last remaining was closed down a few years later (in 2007 I think). From having had (on paper at least) over 50 maneuver battalions (most mob battalions) was one down on having problems with maintaining wood.

So the demise of the 6th Division, the demise of mobilization army, the demise of a threat that large enemy armored forces were to attack Norway, as well as moral scruples that MLRS was an immoral weapon, was well crucial to inactivate them.

There've been a lot of development MLRS since 2004, with new types of ammunition, including with guided missiles.

5013 Division Artillery
The project was approved by the Storting's budget recommendation. S. no. 7 (1994-95), cf. Proposition. no. 1 (1994-1995). The project will provide the Army artillery sufficient range, firepower and survivability. The procurements covered twelve self-propelled multiple rocket launchers of improved edition (MLRS), navigation system, workshop equipment, emergency ammunition, training ammunition and documentation.

The project would also acquire two different types bomblet munitions, long-range and even increasing armor-piercing ammunition and logistics for the weapon system. The project remains ia Now the acquisition of munitions with self-destruct mechanism. So far, the requirements for self-destruction mechanism not been fulfilling, and it is therefore not acquired such ammunition for the weapon system. Emphasis of this because up to such ammunition procurement should be considered in the future when the requirements if necessary. Be fulfilled, cf. Proposition. no. 1 (2003-2004). Other deliveries in the project is largely completed. A future ammunition procurement will be based on the defense structure and the need for this type of ammunition, and a possible. Procurement will be established as a new project.

Project cost (post 45) is 1535 million. Crowns.
http://www.statsbudsjettet.no/Upload/Statsbudsjett_2006/dokumenter/html/fagdep/fd/kap06.htm

The ammunition cost part, yes. Initially they plan to use 2.8 billion in this project.

Status of the project a few years earlier:

5013 Division Artillery
The project was approved by the Storting's consideration of Proposition. no. 1 (1994-1995), cf. B.innst. S. no. 7 (1994-95). The project will bring the division's artillery sufficient range, firepower and survivability.

The project has so far paid out 890 million. Crowns and acquired 12 pieces launching devices, rehearsal * ammunition for the period 1998-2008, my ammunition (AT-2), training materials, documentation and initial logistics. The project would also acquire two different types bomblet munitions, long-range, although increasing, armor-piercing ammunition and logistics for the weapon system. Also entered into an upgrade of launching devices.

Norway has set a general requirement that the bomblet ammunition must be so constructed that devices that do not explode on impact on the ground, will be destroyed by self-destruction. For one kind of bomblet ammunition manufacturer has not been able to develop ammunition that meets our requirements and this will not be acquired.

When it comes to precision bomblet-Ammu * nition of a GMLRS, there are still plans for acquisition, assuming fulfillment of the requirement that devices that do not explode on impact on the ground, shall be destroyed by self-destruction. The procurements are planned from 2006 after the necessary upgrading of launching devices, including in order to use such munitions have been completed.

It is uncertain when even increasing armor piercing ammunition will be available on the market. The cost of acquiring such weapons is estimated to be in excess of 1000 million. Crowns and were provided covered within project framework. As a result of changes in assumptions of the project, this contract no longer be prioritized within available limits.On this basis and as a result of the considerable uncertainty that is present with regard to when the ammunition is available, the purchase of self-increasing armor-piercing ammunition considered removed from the project.

The upgrade of the launch units will provide more effective and updated ildlednings- and the legal system in relation to today's launch devices. Plans also acquired a weathered evil system with associated gas production materials. The system will produce and deliver the necessary meteorological data in all conditions and at all times in order to effectively support artillery operations.

The project cost is 2841 million. Crowns.

As a result of changes in the project, the project's objectives, scope and cost of assessment. Government will return to Parliament with further assessment of the scope / frame in 2002.

https://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dokum...d=STP200120020001_FDDDDEPIS&q=&navchap=1&ch=2

Tämä kanssa jännä ko. ketjusta. Italia on käynyt tänä syyskuussa paukuttamassa MLRS-I:llä Ruotsin Vidselin ampuma-alueella. Kyseessä validaatio GMLRS-päivitykselle.
The artillery unit will be committed until September 15 in an important focus activities at Vidsel Test Range, polygon located in the north of the Scandinavian country.

The exercise is aimed at the validation of the weapon system and crews to the use of munitions GMLRS - UNITARY M31A1 rocket to the latest generation of GPS guidance.

The activity has the purpose of ensuring and confer full operational capability of the one terrestrial artillery platform able to intervene with extreme precision of the targets up to a distance of 100 km.
http://www.esercito.difesa.it/comunicazione/Pagine/Esercito-si-addestra-in-Svezia-160830.aspx
 
Viimeksi muokattu:
Onko Hollanti ja Tanska hävittänyt kalliit rypälerakettinsa vai onko kellään tietoa että ne olisi myyty eteenpäin. Suomen kauppa Hollannin kanssa sisälsi myös ampumatarvikkeita,mitähän sieltä mahtoi mukana tulla?
 
Eiköhän Norja ole altis dumppaamaan MLRS:t kokonaan kun saa hankittua K9:n.
Luulen myös, että yhdysvaltalaisjoukkojen Norjassa suorittamat ammunnat M777:lla aiheuttaa peniskateutta ja ostavat niitä ennemmin kuin modernisoivat M270A1:ksi 30 miljoonalla + ostavat GMLRS:ia.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._with_artillery_rounds_160223-M-EO036-246.jpg http://www.marines.mil/News/News-Di...light-up-norwegian-sky-with-artillery-rounds/

Onko Hollanti ja Tanska hävittänyt kalliit rypälerakettinsa vai onko kellään tietoa että ne olisi myyty eteenpäin. Suomen kauppa Hollannin kanssa sisälsi myös ampumatarvikkeita,mitähän sieltä mahtoi mukana tulla?
Hollannista ei saatu ilmeisesti mitään. Saksasta hankittiin AT2-sirotemiinaraketteja (eli anti-tank) ja M28-harjoitusraketteja. Varsinaisia rypäleitä ovat M26(A1/A2)-kuormaraketit, jotka sisältää M77 tytärammuksia. Niitä ei meillä ole.
Hollannista käytettynä ostettujen raketinheittimien (MLRS M270) kaupan yhteydessä Suomi hankki Saksasta miinaraketteja (AT2) lähinnä panssareiden torjuntaan ja harjoitusraketteja (M28) koulutuskäyttöön. Kohua aiheuttaneita kuorma-ammuksia (M26) eli rypälepommeja ei tullut kaupan mukana, eikä niitä olla myöskään hankkimassa.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000206115.html


Tässä hyvä artikkeli GMRLS-järjestelmästä:
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/uk-complex-weapons/guided-multiple-launch-rocket-system-gmlrs/

Jopa paiskoivat hemmetisti 90-luvulla rakettia ilmaan videosta päätellen.
 
Viimeksi muokattu:
Cluster Munitions Monitor 2011:n mukaan tuo Hollanti kauppa sisälsi 400 M26 raketteja "for qualification testing and conversion into training rockets"
Juu, muistankin törmänneeni joskus tekstiin muuntamisesta harjoitusraketiksi. Tarkoista määristä ei ollut tietoa.

Hyvin kuvaa kuinka ostettiin tilapäisesti poliittisesti kuohittu asejärjestelmä odottamaan parempia aikoja. Ne ei vieläkään ole käsillä. Mutta SDB jne. ja voi jo ostaa muutakin kuin GMLRS:ää.
 
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